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+--- Thread: Eve/Juliette (/Thread-Eve-Juliette)
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 02-25-2018
(02-24-2018, 11:32 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: I think G&K secretly realized they dropped the ball with the entire Hexenette arc, and attempted to "redeem" the character by reformatting her into some kind of superhero-ish ass-kicker. Instead, they only succeeded in pissing off everybody: The fans who wanted to see more of Juliette, and the fans who hated Bitsie Tulloch and wanted her gone from the show completely. It was a lose-lose situation. Nick and Juliette's depressing breakup (combined with the idiotic Eve/HW subplot) wasn't the primary reason the show was ultimately cancelled, but I personally believe it was one of the contributing factors.
I think the beginning of the end occurred even sooner than that, when someone got the brilliant idea of bringing a baby into the series to make Adalind more appealing. Adalind was always an underdeveloped character. Instead of the creative team developing her own story where she could exist on her own and still be an eternal pain in the a** to Nick, the creative team decided the best thing for her was to make her part of the scoobies.
I agree with you regarding Juliette. What I also see with Juliette is that the character was mutiliated in order to bring Adalind into the fold, not make the series more interesting. I actually found the premise of a wesen uprising interesting, but in the reality of the series, what are they in revolt against? They woge when they want and kill when they want regardless. If these wesen wanted to take over, they could. So the series tiptoed around that because BC was never the big issue. And HW...well the posts about that speak for themselves. All the while they continued to try and pound into viewers' heads that Eve was really a different character. At the same time they made it plain they didn't believe it, and so the audience wouldn't believe it either.
Eve should have never even been invited to Monroe's birthday party. That wouldn't have been done because the scoobies were deliberating excluding her. It would have been done because they would have honored her affect and her statements that Juliette no longer existed.
Eve never should have attended because while she knows the scoobies, they are not the same people who she was close to as Juliette. Any memory of Juliette interacting even positively with the scoobies, should have been something that Eve would never deal with. Instead they have her going to a birthday party.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 02-25-2018
I don’t know if I believe G & K were interested in redeeming Juliette as much as they wanted to sever any connection to S4’s raging Juliette Hexenbiest debacle. Creating the new character Eve ended Juliette’s story rather than redeem the original character. Even at the series end, the character insisted she was not the Juliette from S4.
And because G & K couldn't have the new character not devote her life to Nick, they destroyed the emotionally disconnected Eve character by making her one of his loyal followers.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 02-26-2018
(02-25-2018, 09:36 AM)Robyn Wrote: And because G & K couldn't have the new character not devote her life to Nick, they destroyed the emotionally disconnected Eve character by making her one of his loyal followers.
Why does Nick need a significant other/girlfriend/live in domestic?
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 05:28 AM)irukandji Wrote:(02-25-2018, 09:36 AM)Robyn Wrote: And because G & K couldn't have the new character not devote her life to Nick, they destroyed the emotionally disconnected Eve character by making her one of his loyal followers.Why does Nick need a significant other/girlfriend/live in domestic?
I don’t think it’s about only providing Nick a girlfriend. Renard stated the necessity of Juliette in S1. She provided Nick roots in Portland, a reason to stay in one place. Without a dedicated love interest, whether Juliette, Adalind, or someone else, Nick might have gravitated toward the typical lone wolf Grimm lifestyle.
As for Juliette specifically in S5. The new Eve character was introduced as being indifferent to Nick and his personal woes. She wanted to utilize his Grimm abilities but didn’t feel any concern for him as a man or a Grimm. That attitude didn’t fit within the show’s streamlined use of the characters. The ‘good guy’ characters were loyal to Nick, period, and the show quickly transitioned Eve into expressing affection for Nick and caring about his personal woes. I don’t recall a character - good, bad, recurring, or episode specific - who remained indifferent to Nick.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 07:03 AM)Robyn Wrote: I don’t think it’s about only providing Nick a girlfriend. Renard stated the necessity of Juliette in S1. She provided Nick roots in Portland, a reason to stay in one place. Without a dedicated love interest, whether Juliette, Adalind, or someone else, Nick might have gravitated toward the typical lone wolf Grimm lifestyle.
I don't think so. If Nick was going to gravitate toward the long wolf life of a grimm, he would have started to do so once Marie entered the picture.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 08:23 AM)irukandji Wrote:I would agree if Nick didn’t have an established relationship with Juliette when Marie arrived in Portland. Nick was so determined to move forward with their relationship that he proposed while still concealing he was a Grimm. I don’t recall him ever giving serious consideration to ending the relationship and striking out on his own. Nor was there a period of time on the show that Nick wasn’t in a relationship/commitment of some sorts. By the time Nick concluded that he and Juliette weren’t going to reconcile, he had already accepted that he was the father of Adalind’s baby and would take care of them. Even had he decided to leave Portland at the end of S4, he wouldn’t have left his child behind. Because Nick never considered not being a hands-on parent, he couldn't have seriously considered becoming a lone wolf Grimm.(02-26-2018, 07:03 AM)Robyn Wrote: I don’t think it’s about only providing Nick a girlfriend. Renard stated the necessity of Juliette in S1. She provided Nick roots in Portland, a reason to stay in one place. Without a dedicated love interest, whether Juliette, Adalind, or someone else, Nick might have gravitated toward the typical lone wolf Grimm lifestyle.I don't think so. If Nick was going to gravitate toward the long wolf life of a grimm, he would have started to do so once Marie entered the picture.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 09:01 AM)Robyn Wrote: I would agree if Nick didn’t have an established relationship with Juliette when Marie arrived in Portland. Nick was so determined to move forward with their relationship that he proposed while still concealing he was a Grimm. I don’t recall him ever giving serious consideration to ending the relationship and striking out on his own. Nor was there a period of time on the show that Nick wasn’t in a relationship/commitment of some sorts. By the time Nick concluded that he and Juliette weren’t going to reconcile, he had already accepted that he was the father of Adalind’s baby and would take care of them. Even had he decided to leave Portland at the end of S4, he wouldn’t have left his child behind. Because Nick never considered not being a hands-on parent, he couldn't have seriously considered becoming a lone wolf Grimm.
But here's the problem with the proposal. When Juliette confronted Nick about keeping secrets, he didn't sit her down and talk to her right then about being a grimm. Instead he remained silent, and never proposed to her again. If retaining Juliette was such a priority, Nick would have begged her to marry him and would have confessed his grimness to her.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Hell Rell - 02-26-2018
Nick was never meant to be the solitary Grimm. That was clear from the pilot. He would always have a SO and a team behind him. Plus, expecting him to give up his life after a couple of conversations with Aunt Marie would've been more unbelievable than what usually happens in the show.
As for giving Juliette up, I think it has been discussed in this forum how Nick was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to be a Grimm and he wanted to be with Juliette. It turned out to be a doomed relationship but he didn't want to believe that and that was the case even when she turned into a Hexenbiest. Juliette was the one that walked out. Nick has never been shown to break off a relationship the way Batman or Spider-Man have.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 10:36 AM)irukandji Wrote: But here's the problem with the proposal. When Juliette confronted Nick about keeping secrets, he didn't sit her down and talk to her right then about being a grimm. Instead he remained silent, and never proposed to her again. If retaining Juliette was such a priority, Nick would have begged her to marry him and would have confessed his grimness to her.Not necessarily. Juliette turned down his proposal because of his sudden suspicious behavior, but she didn’t threaten to end the relationship. So although marriage was off the table, Nick still had what he wanted - to be a Grimm and have a relationship with Juliette. Hell Rell is right that Nick having a relationship was part of his character profile. For G & K, presenting Nick as a ‘different kind of Grimm’ included a committed relationship and committed friendships that rooted him in one place. But his character profile didn’t require a normal or healthy relationship, or that he only have one relationship throughout the series.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 04:51 PM)Robyn Wrote: Not necessarily. Juliette turned down his proposal because of his sudden suspicious behavior, but she didn’t threaten to end the relationship. So although marriage was off the table, Nick still had what he wanted - to be a Grimm and have a relationship with Juliette. Hell Rell is right that Nick having a relationship was part of his character profile. For G & K, presenting Nick as a ‘different kind of Grimm’ included a committed relationship and committed friendships that rooted him in one place. But his character profile didn’t require a normal or healthy relationship, or that he only have one relationship throughout the series.
If Juliette was part of Nick's character profile, then the series did a poor job of making that evident. She should have been near the top of his character profile then and as such, marriage should have never been removed from the table.
Even when he lost his powers and had the opportunity to prove how important Juliette was to him, Nick passed up on the opportunity. He hedged around and acted like moving away, marrying Juliette, and raising children was desirable. But then he shifted gears and admitted that he liked being a grimm and was pissed that it was taken from him. In my opinion, that does not suggest that Juliette was part of Nick's character profile.
I think the whole significant other in Nick's life was more of a scale. In other words, the grimm life continually measured against a normal life. The grimm life always wins.
As for being rooted, I'm not sure why Renard would make such a statement. There was no indication from Nick himself that he was going to leave Portland if Juliette passed. He was on the job before he ever met Juliette, he had a house, a circle of admiring scoobies to ease his grief and his grimness which he loved above all else. To me, it seems those are indications that Nick intended to reside permanently in Portland.