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+--- Thread: Lack of main character development in Grimm? (/Thread-Lack-of-main-character-development-in-Grimm)
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 07:18 AM)New Guy Wrote: As I have presented before, if the deed was "Joint Tenancy With Right of Survivorship" then Nick could not sell the house without Juliette's witnessed signature or a valid Death Certificate. Based on what information Grimm has provided, that would be impossible.
Therefore, Nick owned the house outright.
Hello New Guy-And here's the issue. According to the NBC recaps, which both of us are fond of quoting, the house was Juliette's house. Nick slept on the couch downstairs and then eventually moved out for a time with Monroe. If it was his house, all he had to do was move into the spare bedroom. Or, make Juliette sleep in the spare bedroom.
There is also a statement from Juliette in one of the later episodes to Nick where she points out that it is "their" house.
While your statement has validity in the real world, in Grimm it has none because there never was any proof of a Joint Tenancy with Right of Survivorship Deed. One day it just simply became Nick's house.
(01-21-2016, 07:18 AM)New Guy Wrote: I agree, Juliette did not have "everything." She did have an education, a professional career and the lead character who loved her and proposed marriage. She threw all of those things away. She replaced them with hatred, betrayal, immorality and violence. She made it clear in 4.20:
I am so glad you brought up her education. We know she put herself through school. What else? Was she top of her class? Did she have friends from school? We know she was a veterinarian. What about that? Did she have day to day struggles? How did she deal with telling a child that their beloved pet had to be put down? Did she own her own practice? Did she have peers at the practice?
Turn page to Nick. We know he goes through day to day struggles. We know how he's dealt with some of the tougher problems on his job. We know his peers.
As for proposed marriage, that isn't a real item that she threw away. You're acting like Nick was some prized possession that any woman would die for just to wear his ring. Not so. Juliette had doubts, and wisely so. No woman should accept a proposal of marriage if she has doubts.
(01-21-2016, 07:18 AM)New Guy Wrote: A "backstory" is not needed to understand why Hexenette was hated and rejected.
That was not what I said. I said it's easier to hate a character who doesn't have much of a backstory. Look at your own arguments. You're proving exactly what I'm saying.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-21-2016
May I change a little the subject (but not too much)???
The characters have no past... But they have no future either... I mean... They have no goals... no plans... Actually, just the royals have... Like Kenneth that had a very good plan to recover Diana and it just didn't work because Viktor (another royal) had a better plan to kill the king.
But let's talk about Nick... is he a cop or a grimm? does he want to be a cop or a grimm? does he have plans to be a good cop or a good grimm?
What is he doing to protect the keys?
What was his plans to protect Juliette?
What is his goals?
I mean... Grimm characters has no past (the writers didn't gave us a minimun past background for many of the main characters...) but they also didn't gave us a minimun view about their goals...
We know the goals of HW... avoid the BC war... This group was introduced in season 5 and we already know what they want... But we don't know what the supposed show hero wants...
Is it just kill wesens? or just arrest them? is it fight royals? or just have sex with hexanbiests? (?)
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - jsgrimm45 - 01-21-2016
This thread opens up how each fan see the characters. Like questions like how long was Juliette in Portland before she met Nick, how long was she out of vet school, was her job placement from school? True lack of development. We all talked about holes in the writing of Grimm. So in season 1-4 the writers never said one way or the other who owned the house so we can't say just because Nick moved out Juliette owned it maybe Nick was a gentleman and remember hexen Juliette moved out not Nick.
If we look at the two times one or the other moved out in the first case Nick thought they would make it back together, in the second case Juliette knew they wouldn't make it back together. In the second case may be the best one for who owned the house.
Where I from I know a used car salesman married to the prosecutor. There was talk about Juliette slumming with Nick. Someone did the research and found the Nick likely made more money than Juliette. No one has point out (why) Adalind isn't slumming with Nick when in the first episode Nick says she is making low 6 figures what is low 6 figures I would say something under 500,000 dollars year.
Likely the writers had no reason to say who owned the house until season 5. Now did him and her spit the cost likely, but she could have had student loans to repay.
It does come down to each fan view on these two character. Nick it has never been said but Nick likely had a college degree also his loans may have be paid or maybe insurance from his mother and father death may have paid for his college and could he have still had money for the down payment on the house that Juliette didn't?
I do agree the Juliette was a poor developed character I will still think she was a late add on that the writers didn't pay much attention to. We also could in says Hank is also what do we know about Hank also a main character. He been married 4 times is about it. Even Wu has a better backdrop than Hank.
Just remember the 5 dollars when to take this to get coffee.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 08:30 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: So in season 1-4 the writers never said one way or the other who owned the house so we can't say just because Nick moved out Juliette owned it maybe Nick was a gentleman and remember hexen Juliette moved out not Nick.
js, actually the NBC recaps stated it was Juliette's house. I think there may have even been dialogue between Nick and Hank that it was Juliette's house. I do recall where Nick and Juliette were talking and apparently the storyline at that point was that it was Juliette's house because she told Nick, "it's our house". Apparently he must have considered it her house, and she was saying it was their house to reassure him. She would have never said such a thing if it was strictly Nick's house. It was only later that without any reason it suddenly became Nick's house.
To me it comes down to very poor writing and a huge issue with Juliette's disappearance. Nick could never sell the house if it belonged to Juliette. So the writers quickly turned it around and made it Nick's house.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 08:29 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: May I change a little the subject (but not too much)???
The characters have no past... But they have no future either... I mean... They have no goals... no plans... Actually, just the royals have... Like Kenneth that had a very good plan to recover Diana and it just didn't work because Viktor (another royal) had a better plan to kill the king.
But let's talk about Nick... is he a cop or a grimm? does he want to be a cop or a grimm? does he have plans to be a good cop or a good grimm?
What is he doing to protect the keys?
What was his plans to protect Juliette?
What is his goals?
I would have to say with Nick, there is a goal in mind. Generally speaking, the episode starts out with some kind of crime and it's Nick's job to solve it. How he goes about solving it is another argument altogether, one of Grimm versus detective. There are also other issues in his life. Kelly for one. His goal right now is to be a father to his son. Whether he's a good father or a bad father just adds icing to the cake.
Juliette, on the other hand. How did she fit into Nick's goals? What were her goals? I can't say for sure. She seemed rather aimless to me. Not a lot of past and certainly no future.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - New Guy - 01-21-2016
Hello JS and Irukandji,
The ownership of the house has been discussed quite a bit. I believe much of the discussion related to the "slumming" discussion.
The writers give no detailed financial data to confirm gross annual income and net worth of Nick and Juliette. I referenced the "Jobs Rated Almanac" data for estimates of income. I took a lot of flak, but it is the most quoted source of such data.
So, back to this thread. Irukandji makes some good points:
Quote:Nick could never sell the house if it belonged to Juliette.True.
Quote:To me it comes down to very poor writing and a huge issue with Juliette's disappearance.In the flash back where they are moving in together, a comment from either like "I love you so much and I'm so happy you asked me to move into your new house" would have avoided the issue. If it was Nick's, OK. If it was Juliette's how did it pass a title search and get sold?
JS presents a plausible explanation:
Quote:So in season 1-4 the writers never said one way or the other who owned the house so we can't say just because Nick moved out Juliette owned it maybe Nick was a gentleman and remember hexen Juliette moved out not Nick.
If we look at the two times one or the other moved out in the first case Nick thought they would make it back together, in the second case Juliette knew they wouldn't make it back together. In the second case may be the best one for who owned the house.
Juliette knew they were through. At least she was through. IMO, it is possible the writers decided to actually kill off Hexenette in 4.22. Then money and/or contracts with Bitsie derailed the good plot that ended in the tragic death of her character Juliette. This forced the hand of the writers to concoct a plot that included Bitsie. So now we have to endure this Eve thing while the writers focus their best efforts on some yet to be announced new show. They will not be as inspired to write like the series originated.
IMO 5.06 could have been written without Eve ending with the BC closing in for the kill. Let it hang until 5.07 and major hand to hand combat concludes with the viewers rejoicing in another Scoobie victory. It is too late now. All we get is a cheap wig and a bunch of dead BC thugs.
New Guy
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 11:09 AM)irukandji Wrote:(01-21-2016, 08:29 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: May I change a little the subject (but not too much)???
The characters have no past... But they have no future either... I mean... They have no goals... no plans... Actually, just the royals have... Like Kenneth that had a very good plan to recover Diana and it just didn't work because Viktor (another royal) had a better plan to kill the king.
But let's talk about Nick... is he a cop or a grimm? does he want to be a cop or a grimm? does he have plans to be a good cop or a good grimm?
What is he doing to protect the keys?
What was his plans to protect Juliette?
What is his goals?
I would have to say with Nick, there is a goal in mind. Generally speaking, the episode starts out with some kind of crime and it's Nick's job to solve it. How he goes about solving it is another argument altogether, one of Grimm versus detective. There are also other issues in his life. Kelly for one. His goal right now is to be a father to his son. Whether he's a good father or a bad father just adds icing to the cake.
Juliette, on the other hand. How did she fit into Nick's goals? What were her goals? I can't say for sure. She seemed rather aimless to me. Not a lot of past and certainly no future.
I will be just a little annoying here...
For Nick what does mean “to solve it”? Arrest a criminal guy or kill a bad wesen?
Please, don’t misunderstand me… you were the one who accused Nick to be a bad detective because he didn’t follow the law as he should… And you convinced me that… that is why I am making this question… We know Nick should be a good detective… but is this HIS goal? I mean… One thing is what the society expectations about him … another thing is his own expectations about himself… It is about the second thing I am talking about…
You commented about being a good father… that is a very good point… What does it mean to be a good father for Nick?
I took Nick as example… but we could argue the same about actually almost every character… maybe Adelaind is the one we know more about her goals and plans (besides the royals)…
For her, to be a good mother is to be mother different from her own mother…
When she took Nick’s grimm power, she did that because wanted to be with Diana (she believed Viktor had her…).
When she poisoned Hank she wanted Nick’s key (she was following Sean’s orders).
And she is with nick for protection for her and Kelly… and because she doesn’t want to raise the baby alone.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 11:34 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: For Nick what does mean “to solve it”? Arrest a criminal guy or kill a bad wesen?
Let me put this a different way. Nick's goal is not to solve the crime. It was a mistake for me to type that. For the purposes of entertainment, Grimm usually starts out with the same scenario. A crime is committed, Nick and company are called to the scene. Their job is to investigate the crime. We have no idea what Nick's personal goal is in relation to the investigation. It would be assumed that he would want to solve the crime, but his track record often indicates otherwise according to Wu.
When I was talking about goals, I was thinking of something a little more personal to him than what society thinks of him or how he does his job. I was thinking more of his lifestyle. In order to maintain his lifestyle, he has to have personal goals. The primary goal would be money so that he can live in that goofy warehouse, drive his cool car, pay for dweeb's expenses, and support his son.
Nick is already a Grimm so I'm not sure I can count that as a goal because he's already reached it. Maybe you can throw in some ideas here.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 12:27 PM)irukandji Wrote:(01-21-2016, 11:34 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: For Nick what does mean “to solve it”? Arrest a criminal guy or kill a bad wesen?
Let me put this a different way. Nick's goal is not to solve the crime. It was a mistake for me to type that. For the purposes of entertainment, Grimm usually starts out with the same scenario. A crime is committed, Nick and company are called to the scene. Their job is to investigate the crime. We have no idea what Nick's personal goal is in relation to the investigation. It would be assumed that he would want to solve the crime, but his track record often indicates otherwise according to Wu.
When I was talking about goals, I was thinking of something a little more personal to him than what society thinks of him or how he does his job. I was thinking more of his lifestyle. In order to maintain his lifestyle, he has to have personal goals. The primary goal would be money so that he can live in that goofy warehouse, drive his cool car, pay for dweeb's expenses, and support his son.
Nick is already a Grimm so I'm not sure I can count that as a goal because he's already reached it. Maybe you can throw in some ideas here.
I should have explained myself better... Probably I am using goal in the wrong way, just like when I used jail and prison wrong…
My point is the following. We are talking about characters development and how much we like them or not, ok?
Let’s consider Adelaind. We may like her or not. We may like her actions or not. But we can understand the porpoise of almost all her actions. She never just acts or reacts… Everything she did she did because she wanted something. This way we as viewers can judge her actions and her intentions. We can say she did the right thing for the wrong reason… or she did the wrong thing for the right reason…
Let’s talk about the royals. We know they want Diana, the keys and to rule the world again. Everything they do is to get to those objectives. Kenneth used Juliette to bring Kelly to Portland and killed Kelly… to take Diana. We can judge their reasons, their actions…
But when it comes to the main characters… Nick planned to invade the royal mansion for what? Rescue Juliette? Recover Diana? Kill the king?
Juliette was very nervous with Nick and everyone… so she accepted Kenneth’s offer… but what did she want? Kill Nick? Became a royal? Revenge? Kill Kelly?
Nick almost all the time just REact to what happened… Nick simple REACTS…
And Juliette also just reacts in those entire plots (I don’t think she planned to became Eve…).
That is what I mean with having no goal…
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 01-21-2016
(01-21-2016, 01:30 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: I should have explained myself better... Probably I am using goal in the wrong way, just like when I used jail and prison wrong…
My point is the following. We are talking about characters development and how much we like them or not, ok?
Let’s consider Adelaind. We may like her or not. We may like her actions or not. But we can understand the porpoise of almost all her actions. She never just acts or reacts… Everything she did she did because she wanted something. This way we as viewers can judge her actions and her intentions. We can say she did the right thing for the wrong reason… or she did the wrong thing for the right reason…
Let’s talk about the royals. We know they want Diana, the keys and to rule the world again. Everything they do is to get to those objectives. Kenneth used Juliette to bring Kelly to Portland and killed Kelly… to take Diana. We can judge their reasons, their actions…
But when it comes to the main characters… Nick planned to invade the royal mansion for what? Rescue Juliette? Recover Diana? Kill the king?
Juliette was very nervous with Nick and everyone… so she accepted Kenneth’s offer… but what did she want? Kill Nick? Became a royal? Revenge? Kill Kelly?
Nick almost all the time just REact to what happened… Nick simple REACTS…
And Juliette also just reacts in those entire plots (I don’t think she planned to became Eve…).
That is what I mean with having no goal…
I still may not be understanding what you're saying, Adriano. What I was talking about is the issue of Juliette. I wasn't really referring to any goals that she would have, but rather the lack of development. For instance, her veterinarian profession. We've only seen her in the office once or twice? in the four years that Grimm has been on the air.
She did turn into a hexenbiest, but I still see that as a lack of development. We know she wanted to be human, but then one or two episodes later, she claims to be happy with the change. What the heck happened in those two episodes that made her happy with the change? One of the biggest confusions to me is this being arrested in the bar story arc. What was Juliette doing in a bar? As far as I know she's never been a bar hopper. Now all of the sudden because she's a hexenbiest she's also a barfly?
Most of the time the most memorable things anyone (myself included) can think of about Juliette is: a) she betrayed Kelly and b) she torched the trailer.
Oh yeah, I forgot: she refused Nick's proposal.
As far as I know this woman is not known for any good deeds.
Take the dweeb Adalind for an opposite. She's excused because she was told to do what she did. Or, she did what she did because she wanted her baby back. Or she did what she did because she wanted her powers back. Never mind that she has rape, assault, conspiracy, attempted murder, and probably a hundred other things to her name. The fact that she cozied up to Nick and provided a baby, and all of the sudden voices concern over the unpredictable hexenbiest makes her a good person, worthy of Nick's charitibility. We know so much more about Adalind, so I think it's easy for a lot of people to excuse her, especially with Nick's baby in tow. There's a lot of character development in Adalind.
Because there's a lot of character development there, people can relate to her. She's done good things as well as bad. Juliette, not so much if any.