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+--- Thread: Lack of main character development in Grimm? (/Thread-Lack-of-main-character-development-in-Grimm)
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - jsgrimm45 - 11-18-2015
(11-18-2015, 01:28 PM)irukandji Wrote:That doesn't look odd Jack killed Henrietta for figuring out what was happening to Renard. In my opinion.(11-18-2015, 12:53 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Oh... now very specific. I think he did the right thing in this point. Actually I don't know if he had a choice.
I mean: He hadn't the knowledge to help her. Henrietta was the only hexanbiest specialist available that he knew and that maybe would be able to help Juliette since Elizabeth was out of town. What else could he have done different?
Does it seem odd to you that Renard referred Juliette to Henrietta and then he ends up killing Henrietta?
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 11-18-2015
(11-18-2015, 01:47 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(11-18-2015, 01:28 PM)irukandji Wrote:That doesn't look odd Jack killed Henrietta for figuring out what was happening to Renard. In my opinion.(11-18-2015, 12:53 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Oh... now very specific. I think he did the right thing in this point. Actually I don't know if he had a choice.
I mean: He hadn't the knowledge to help her. Henrietta was the only hexanbiest specialist available that he knew and that maybe would be able to help Juliette since Elizabeth was out of town. What else could he have done different?
Does it seem odd to you that Renard referred Juliette to Henrietta and then he ends up killing Henrietta?
Why would he kill Henrietta when he didn't kill Juliette?
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 11-18-2015
(11-18-2015, 01:28 PM)irukandji Wrote:(11-18-2015, 12:53 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Oh... now very specific. I think he did the right thing in this point. Actually I don't know if he had a choice.
I mean: He hadn't the knowledge to help her. Henrietta was the only hexanbiest specialist available that he knew and that maybe would be able to help Juliette since Elizabeth was out of town. What else could he have done different?
Does it seem odd to you that Renard referred Juliette to Henrietta and then he ends up killing Henrietta?
Yes. You can add to this that Sean himself went to Henrietta asking for help about the bleeding and forgetfulness he was having... and he just killed her after that.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - jsgrimm45 - 11-18-2015
(11-18-2015, 01:55 PM)irukandji Wrote:When Jack took over to the point of killing Juliette wasn't at his house any longer. She was in jail or with Kenneth. After the second killing is when he went to Henrietta for help understanding what was going on Jack because of Renard knew she would know. Jack my opinion seen Henrietta as a likely threat and may know a way to send him back as Adalind did so she had to go. We also could say that Juliette wouldn't know things like Henrietta or Adalind who grew up in that world, so Juliette wouldn't pose the same threat, again just my opinion.(11-18-2015, 01:47 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(11-18-2015, 01:28 PM)irukandji Wrote:That doesn't look odd Jack killed Henrietta for figuring out what was happening to Renard. In my opinion.(11-18-2015, 12:53 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Oh... now very specific. I think he did the right thing in this point. Actually I don't know if he had a choice.
I mean: He hadn't the knowledge to help her. Henrietta was the only hexanbiest specialist available that he knew and that maybe would be able to help Juliette since Elizabeth was out of town. What else could he have done different?
Does it seem odd to you that Renard referred Juliette to Henrietta and then he ends up killing Henrietta?
Why would he kill Henrietta when he didn't kill Juliette?
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 11-19-2015
(11-18-2015, 03:11 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Jack took over to the point of killing Juliette wasn't at his house any longer. She was in jail or with Kenneth.
Correct, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. If this spirit was supposed to be Jack the Ripper (as we were led to believe), it would have made sense that Renard went after Juliette. While she was not a prostitute, Juliette propositioned him earlier and slept with him. If he was going to go after anyone at all, it really should have been Juliette, not Henrietta.
(11-18-2015, 03:11 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: After the second killing is when he went to Henrietta for help understanding what was going on Jack because of Renard knew she would know. Jack my opinion seen Henrietta as a likely threat and may know a way to send him back as Adalind did so she had to go. We also could say that Juliette wouldn't know things like Henrietta or Adalind who grew up in that world, so Juliette wouldn't pose the same threat, again just my opinion.
Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
But in fact, the Ripper was not afraid of threats. I am paraphrasing here, there was at least one account of someone, (not sure if it was law enforcement or a passerby), coming on to the scene within moments of one of the killings.
In this case, Henrietta wouldn't have learned anything anyway, other than it was some kind of spirit. The Ripper was never identified and likely won't be.
I just thought it odd that Henrietta was the only non-prostitute killed and there was no reason for her being killed. Someone talked about Elizabeth deliberately knowing that Juliette was going to become a hexenbiest as a side effect of the potion and I thought Henrietta might be a different angle on all of this.
In other words, Renard was really Renard when he slashed her throat, and killed her because she might be the only one who could make Juliette human again.
Jack the Ripper's been done a thousand times in a thousand different ways, but also as a conspiracy. Instead of the sloppy version in Grimm, we actually could have had a great tension filled story if Jack went after Juliette instead of Henrietta.
Caveat here: there is no proof of this, Juliette was well on her own and creating havoc by the time Henrietta died, and we don't know what Sean knew or didn't know as Jack the Ripper.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 11-19-2015
(11-19-2015, 06:23 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
I will left the hard part of the argument to Jsgrimm45. I write about just one point I remember about.
Rosalee and Monroe didn't tell the captain about their plan to give the medical that fake death because according to them jack the spirit would know everything Sean knows. This way to trap the spirit they would have to lie to Sean, as they did.
This way, the spirit knew Juliette was a new born hexanbiest with strong power but no knowledge... He also know Henrietta was a powerful hexanbiest with great knowledge. I remember Sean going to Henrietta, Henrietta asking some questions and her words after that was like she already know what was going on and how to deal with that. That is why jack the spirit felt threatened. This didn't happen with Juliette and neither with Rosalee.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 11-19-2015
(11-19-2015, 06:46 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(11-19-2015, 06:23 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
I will left the hard part of the argument to Jsgrimm45. I write about just one point I remember about.
Rosalee and Monroe didn't tell the captain about their plan to give the medical that fake death because according to them jack the spirit would know everything Sean knows. This way to trap the spirit they would have to lie to Sean, as they did.
This way, the spirit knew Juliette was a new born hexanbiest with strong power but no knowledge... He also know Henrietta was a powerful hexanbiest with great knowledge. I remember Sean going to Henrietta, Henrietta asking some questions and her words after that was like she already know what was going on and how to deal with that. That is why jack the spirit felt threatened. This didn't happen with Juliette and neither with Rosalee.
I don't remember the episode verbatim, but what you're stating is not how the recap reads. It said when Sean went to see her, he was upset and yelling because she didn't know what was happening to him. She told him she had to research it further.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 11-19-2015
(11-19-2015, 07:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:You are right. I typed it from memory. My memory betrayed me on that.(11-19-2015, 06:46 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(11-19-2015, 06:23 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
I will left the hard part of the argument to Jsgrimm45. I write about just one point I remember about.
Rosalee and Monroe didn't tell the captain about their plan to give the medical that fake death because according to them jack the spirit would know everything Sean knows. This way to trap the spirit they would have to lie to Sean, as they did.
This way, the spirit knew Juliette was a new born hexanbiest with strong power but no knowledge... He also know Henrietta was a powerful hexanbiest with great knowledge. I remember Sean going to Henrietta, Henrietta asking some questions and her words after that was like she already know what was going on and how to deal with that. That is why jack the spirit felt threatened. This didn't happen with Juliette and neither with Rosalee.
I don't remember the episode verbatim, but what you're stating is not how the recap reads. It said when Sean went to see her, he was upset and yelling because she didn't know what was happening to him. She told him she had to research it further.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - jsgrimm45 - 11-19-2015
(11-19-2015, 07:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Correct but as soon a Renard left her home she when to a book and look shock that this could be happening. Also we will note that after the killing we hear Jack talking. Jack know what Renard was doing but Renard didn't know what Jack was doing.(11-19-2015, 06:46 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(11-19-2015, 06:23 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
I will left the hard part of the argument to Jsgrimm45. I write about just one point I remember about.
Rosalee and Monroe didn't tell the captain about their plan to give the medical that fake death because according to them jack the spirit would know everything Sean knows. This way to trap the spirit they would have to lie to Sean, as they did.
This way, the spirit knew Juliette was a new born hexanbiest with strong power but no knowledge... He also know Henrietta was a powerful hexanbiest with great knowledge. I remember Sean going to Henrietta, Henrietta asking some questions and her words after that was like she already know what was going on and how to deal with that. That is why jack the spirit felt threatened. This didn't happen with Juliette and neither with Rosalee.
I don't remember the episode verbatim, but what you're stating is not how the recap reads. It said when Sean went to see her, he was upset and yelling because she didn't know what was happening to him. She told him she had to research it further.
Also looked like Jack could not take over completely we seen Renard do some small crimes before the killing started like Jack control was increasing. The killing didn't start until S4E20 and again Juliette wasn't around Sean any longer she was with Kenneth. After we seen him tell Juliette about the baby for Juliette that became the one thing so even if Jack wanted her dead he don't have the time or place to do it.
I believe the only reason Jack killed Henrietta was to stop Sean from getting help to put him out. Jack likely would have killed Adalind because Sean would know that Adalind would also know how to take him out of Sean, but again will are back to Adalind was now being protected by a Grimm. We could guess because he was once sent back by a Grimm would not take that chance. He knew that if Sean was killed he would go back to where ever.
When Juliette and Sean had they little bed time, like you said Juliette wasn't a working girl nothing about the real Jack was known. The real Jack may have had a girlfriend and after over a century in the black will go where you want. He had a willing partner and control somewhat of a host.
RE: Lack of main character development in Grimm? - irukandji - 11-19-2015
(11-19-2015, 08:16 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(11-19-2015, 07:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Correct but as soon a Renard left her home she when to a book and look shock that this could be happening. Also we will note that after the killing we hear Jack talking. Jack know what Renard was doing but Renard didn't know what Jack was doing.(11-19-2015, 06:46 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(11-19-2015, 06:23 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well, the gist I got out of this was that Jack didn't know what Renard was doing and vice versa. There were several threats on the scene to this spirit. Rosalee was one, I thought Renard went to her before he went to Henrietta. I also thought he told several people about his bleeding and blackouts. Those would have been threats to the Ripper, if the Ripper spirit knew what Sean was doing.
I will left the hard part of the argument to Jsgrimm45. I write about just one point I remember about.
Rosalee and Monroe didn't tell the captain about their plan to give the medical that fake death because according to them jack the spirit would know everything Sean knows. This way to trap the spirit they would have to lie to Sean, as they did.
This way, the spirit knew Juliette was a new born hexanbiest with strong power but no knowledge... He also know Henrietta was a powerful hexanbiest with great knowledge. I remember Sean going to Henrietta, Henrietta asking some questions and her words after that was like she already know what was going on and how to deal with that. That is why jack the spirit felt threatened. This didn't happen with Juliette and neither with Rosalee.
I don't remember the episode verbatim, but what you're stating is not how the recap reads. It said when Sean went to see her, he was upset and yelling because she didn't know what was happening to him. She told him she had to research it further.
Also looked like Jack could not take over completely we seen Renard do some small crimes before the killing started like Jack control was increasing. The killing didn't start until S4E20 and again Juliette wasn't around Sean any longer she was with Kenneth. After we seen him tell Juliette about the baby for Juliette that became the one thing so even if Jack wanted her dead he don't have the time or place to do it.
I believe the only reason Jack killed Henrietta was to stop Sean from getting help to put him out. Jack likely would have killed Adalind because Sean would know that Adalind would also know how to take him out of Sean, but again will are back to Adalind was now being protected by a Grimm. We could guess because he was once sent back by a Grimm would not take that chance. He knew that if Sean was killed he would go back to where ever.
My point is that Jack the Ripper would have never perceived Henrietta as a threat. In fact, there have been among the thousand theories posed that the real killer did all that he could so he *would* get caught without turning himself in and still never was caught.
Since Henrietta never really came out with anything that concretely proved the spirit was a threat, we'll never really know. I think Grimm just blew this one from beginning to end. I think it would have been much cooler if he'd pursued Juliette.