(10-11-2015, 07:24 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I know it seemed a little weird, the plot line of Adalind digging up her mother, dissecting her mother, "drinking her mother." Just a random plot idea to gross us out?

Maybe but after talking about the rape/forced relationship and how close that is to the situation of a real Hapsburg princess in 1810, the time period of the Grimm Brothers, I started adding up all the similiarities and it dawn on me why Adalind "drank her mother".

I wrote it here and don't want to double post, so you can click now or I can give you a real rough idea.

https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/nicks-bedroom/

Without going into details Marie Louise was forced to marry her hated enemy Napoleon Bonaparte in order for him to produce an heir. Yes this is a case where only the baby is the reason for the marriage. She was surrounded by French politicans and courtiers that had survived the reign of terror, mostly because they had participated in it. Meaning they had sent her favorite aunt, Marie Antonette to the guilotine. Imagine having your aunt's crimes "dissected" in casual conversation before you at a state dinner table. Or being asked to join in a toast to Marie Antonette's death. "Drinking her own mother" is a metaphor for having to drink a toast to her family's murder.

Maybe they are using some biography of the events as their source for this "tale". They haven't quoted anything yet, but it's pretty clear they are following some storyline of Napoleon-Josephine-Marie Louise in their Nick-Juliette-Adalind story in season 4/5.

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-11-2015, 07:24 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I know it seemed a little weird, the plot line of Adalind digging up her mother, dissecting her mother, "drinking her mother." Just a random plot idea to gross us out?

Maybe but after talking about the rape/forced relationship and how close that is to the situation of a real Hapsburg princess in 1810, the time period of the Grimm Brothers, I started adding up all the similiarities and it dawn on me why Adalind "drank her mother".

I wrote it here and don't want to double post, so you can click now or I can give you a real rough idea.

https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/nicks-bedroom/

Without going into details Marie Louise was forced to marry her hated enemy Napoleon Bonaparte in order for him to produce an heir. Yes this is a case where only the baby is the reason for the marriage. She was surrounded by French politicans and courtiers that had survived the reign of terror, mostly because they had participated in it. Meaning they had sent her favorite aunt, Marie Antonette to the guilotine. Imagine having your aunt's crimes "dissected" in casual conversation before you at a state dinner table. Or being asked to join in a toast to Marie Antonette's death. "Drinking her own mother" is a metaphor for having to drink a toast to her family's murder.

Maybe they are using some biography of the events as their source for this "tale". They haven't quoted anything yet, but it's pretty clear they are following some storyline of Napoleon-Josephine-Marie Louise in their Nick-Juliette-Adalind story in season 4/5.

I will say @Lin S. you have a unique way of looking a the series so you have unique posts and threads. That said I don't see a lot of Shakespeare or history in the series. Some posts have reseach on the history of the 13 century crusades and the keys adding the 600 years Renard says it took the royals to get the 4 keys we are into the Napoleon time frame. Add the King of Portugal when to Brazil to get away from Napoleon only came up because of all the times Brazil is referenced in the series.

To your idea on did Adalind drink her mother you said "why" I see this as no she didn't to answer your question she drank a potion made from her dead hexen mother. The only one she could find. Later if she needs or wants her powers back could she use Henrietta body to undo the potion? What would the why be then? After the potion was run thru the hat was there anything of the mother left or did the hat change the very potion? How powerful is the hat I believe the hat is what made Juliette a hexen, so I believe the hat may the most powerful object on Grimm to date.

She did this to prove the potion worked to save herself from Juliette, but this and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee.

(10-12-2015, 01:22 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-11-2015, 07:24 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I know it seemed a little weird, the plot line of Adalind digging up her mother, dissecting her mother, "drinking her mother." Just a random plot idea to gross us out?

Maybe but after talking about the rape/forced relationship and how close that is to the situation of a real Hapsburg princess in 1810, the time period of the Grimm Brothers, I started adding up all the similiarities and it dawn on me why Adalind "drank her mother".

I wrote it here and don't want to double post, so you can click now or I can give you a real rough idea.

https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/nicks-bedroom/

Without going into details Marie Louise was forced to marry her hated enemy Napoleon Bonaparte in order for him to produce an heir. Yes this is a case where only the baby is the reason for the marriage. She was surrounded by French politicans and courtiers that had survived the reign of terror, mostly because they had participated in it. Meaning they had sent her favorite aunt, Marie Antonette to the guilotine. Imagine having your aunt's crimes "dissected" in casual conversation before you at a state dinner table. Or being asked to join in a toast to Marie Antonette's death. "Drinking her own mother" is a metaphor for having to drink a toast to her family's murder.

Maybe they are using some biography of the events as their source for this "tale". They haven't quoted anything yet, but it's pretty clear they are following some storyline of Napoleon-Josephine-Marie Louise in their Nick-Juliette-Adalind story in season 4/5.

I will say @Lin S. you have a unique way of looking a the series so you have unique posts and threads. That said I don't see a lot of Shakespeare or history in the series. Some posts have reseach on the history of the 13 century crusades and the keys adding the 600 years Renard says it took the royals to get the 4 keys we are into the Napoleon time frame. Add the King of Portugal when to Brazil to get away from Napoleon only came up because of all the times Brazil is referenced in the series.

To your idea on did Adalind drink her mother you said "why" I see this as no she didn't to answer your question she drank a potion made from her dead hexen mother. The only one she could find. Later if she needs or wants her powers back could she use Henrietta body to undo the potion? What would the why be then? After the potion was run thru the hat was there anything of the mother left or did the hat change the very potion? How powerful is the hat I believe the hat is what made Juliette a hexen, so I believe the hat may the most powerful object on Grimm to date.

She did this to prove the potion worked to save herself from Juliette, but this and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee.

What do you see above? There is a saying that you can't see what you can't believe.

Nick sees wesen. But then Nick believes there are wesen in the world. Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them.

Grimm producers say they base their storylines on fairy tales but does Nick know that? No. Nick doesn't know he's a TV show either.

You have to believe it is possible before your mind will let you recognize it. In Grimm terms you have to read the fairy tale to recognize the fairy tale. I don't see the similiarities between the quotes and what happens in the episode many times if it is a Japanese or American Indian myth. I know they are quoted in the episode but I don't see the "story". Does that mean it isn't there?

As to the idea that you have to believe first then you can see it. That is a very fairy tale sort of idea. Wendy in Peter Pan can "see" fairies because she believes in them. The adults in the story can't. Why? Is there something wrong with their optical equipment? No, it's a matter of belief.

But then you might say what about people who think they "see" space aliens and little green men. Should we believe everything other people think they see? Aren't such people crazy?

Well that question is addressed in Grimm too. Nick doesn't want to tell Hank or Wu he is a Grimm at first. He knows they will think he is crazy like Juliette did. In fact Wu gets put in a mental hospital in a couple of scenes because he thinks he sees a Wesen. Was Wu crazy or not?

That is the question of Grimm. You can't see it if you can't imagine it in the first place, but how do you know what you think you see is real?

You test it against reality. If it is real you should be able to predict it's future movements.

That's what I do. I have read the stories quoted in the Grimm episode after the show has aired. Then gone back and watched the episode a second time looking for simiiarities to the story. If I find them fine. If I don't I don't. But I can't find them until I have read them and looked for them.

And the way I test to see if what I see is really there, is to try to predict what the characters will do next. If Grimm is following a story already written and published, then I should be able to read ahead and predict what will happen. If what I predict doesn't turn out to be true then I have to rethink my thesis. So I go online to ask other people if they see what I see.

(10-12-2015, 03:30 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 01:22 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-11-2015, 07:24 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I know it seemed a little weird, the plot line of Adalind digging up her mother, dissecting her mother, "drinking her mother." Just a random plot idea to gross us out?

Maybe but after talking about the rape/forced relationship and how close that is to the situation of a real Hapsburg princess in 1810, the time period of the Grimm Brothers, I started adding up all the similiarities and it dawn on me why Adalind "drank her mother".

I wrote it here and don't want to double post, so you can click now or I can give you a real rough idea.

https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/nicks-bedroom/

Without going into details Marie Louise was forced to marry her hated enemy Napoleon Bonaparte in order for him to produce an heir. Yes this is a case where only the baby is the reason for the marriage. She was surrounded by French politicans and courtiers that had survived the reign of terror, mostly because they had participated in it. Meaning they had sent her favorite aunt, Marie Antonette to the guilotine. Imagine having your aunt's crimes "dissected" in casual conversation before you at a state dinner table. Or being asked to join in a toast to Marie Antonette's death. "Drinking her own mother" is a metaphor for having to drink a toast to her family's murder.

Maybe they are using some biography of the events as their source for this "tale". They haven't quoted anything yet, but it's pretty clear they are following some storyline of Napoleon-Josephine-Marie Louise in their Nick-Juliette-Adalind story in season 4/5.

I will say @Lin S. you have a unique way of looking a the series so you have unique posts and threads. That said I don't see a lot of Shakespeare or history in the series. Some posts have reseach on the history of the 13 century crusades and the keys adding the 600 years Renard says it took the royals to get the 4 keys we are into the Napoleon time frame. Add the King of Portugal when to Brazil to get away from Napoleon only came up because of all the times Brazil is referenced in the series.

To your idea on did Adalind drink her mother you said "why" I see this as no she didn't to answer your question she drank a potion made from her dead hexen mother. The only one she could find. Later if she needs or wants her powers back could she use Henrietta body to undo the potion? What would the why be then? After the potion was run thru the hat was there anything of the mother left or did the hat change the very potion? How powerful is the hat I believe the hat is what made Juliette a hexen, so I believe the hat may the most powerful object on Grimm to date.

She did this to prove the potion worked to save herself from Juliette, but this and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee.

What do you see above? There is a saying that you can't see what you can't believe.

Nick sees wesen. But then Nick believes there are wesen in the world. Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them.

Grimm producers say they base their storylines on fairy tales but does Nick know that? No. Nick doesn't know he's a TV show either.

You have to believe it is possible before your mind will let you recognize it. In Grimm terms you have to read the fairy tale to recognize the fairy tale. I don't see the similiarities between the quotes and what happens in the episode many times if it is a Japanese or American Indian myth. I know they are quoted in the episode but I don't see the "story". Does that mean it isn't there?

As to the idea that you have to believe first then you can see it. That is a very fairy tale sort of idea. Wendy in Peter Pan can "see" fairies because she believes in them. The adults in the story can't. Why? Is there something wrong with their optical equipment? No, it's a matter of belief.

But then you might say what about people who think they "see" space aliens and little green men. Should we believe everything other people think they see? Aren't such people crazy?

Well that question is addressed in Grimm too. Nick doesn't want to tell Hank or Wu he is a Grimm at first. He knows they will think he is crazy like Juliette did. In fact Wu gets put in a mental hospital in a couple of scenes because he thinks he sees a Wesen. Was Wu crazy or not?

That is the question of Grimm. You can't see it if you can't imagine it in the first place, but how do you know what you think you see is real?

You test it against reality. If it is real you should be able to predict it's future movements.

That's what I do. I have read the stories quoted in the Grimm episode after the show has aired. Then gone back and watched the episode a second time looking for simiiarities to the story. If I find them fine. If I don't I don't. But I can't find them until I have read them and looked for them.

And the way I test to see if what I see is really there, is to try to predict what the characters will do next. If Grimm is following a story already written and published, then I should be able to read ahead and predict what will happen. If what I predict doesn't turn out to be true then I have to rethink my thesis. So I go online to ask other people if they see what I see.

That's a very good in depth fan creation that you enjoy. I don't get into the storyline to that depth. History I get into for the facts, but fantasy or horror I watch for the mystery.

I watch for did the writers keep the characters in character or if not how did they change them was that done correctly. Like they way the changed Juliette from my point didn't work, because they left out the how. Now I would not stop watching because of the that because Grimm wasn't about Juliette.

When I go to a movie I watch the complete movie even if it doesn't work because I don't want to hear someone say well you left just before it got good I know better from my point of view. I hated most movies in the 70's because they didn't have a clear ending I may not like or agree with the ending but I want an ending.

When I read a book I want it to have an ending even if I don't agree. Most people like the Lord of Rings books I didn't because the first one I read didn't end. Terry Brooks writes the same type of book but his books ends the next may be in the same series but you don't have to read them in order each of his books have a story with a complete story then end.

It may seem that I don't have a good "Imagination" but in fact I do I just don't want to use my imagination or how I would do it. I want the read the author's imagination.

If you think about with all the centuries of writing it would very hard to come up with a plot that doesn't likely have some past connection to something. The same thing applies to movies also. The movie Avatar was a remake (my opinion) of Dances with Wolves.

In your outline you said "Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them", but even after you or they know wesen exist they still can't see them because they don't have the cones in their eyes only a Grimm has so believing in wesen can't make you able to see wesen.

Thanks for making we think even if does cost hair. (That's an inside joke if you want to know I'll send you a PM)

(10-12-2015, 03:51 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 03:30 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 01:22 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-11-2015, 07:24 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I know it seemed a little weird, the plot line of Adalind digging up her mother, dissecting her mother, "drinking her mother." Just a random plot idea to gross us out?

Maybe but after talking about the rape/forced relationship and how close that is to the situation of a real Hapsburg princess in 1810, the time period of the Grimm Brothers, I started adding up all the similiarities and it dawn on me why Adalind "drank her mother".

I wrote it here and don't want to double post, so you can click now or I can give you a real rough idea.

https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/nicks-bedroom/

Without going into details Marie Louise was forced to marry her hated enemy Napoleon Bonaparte in order for him to produce an heir. Yes this is a case where only the baby is the reason for the marriage. She was surrounded by French politicans and courtiers that had survived the reign of terror, mostly because they had participated in it. Meaning they had sent her favorite aunt, Marie Antonette to the guilotine. Imagine having your aunt's crimes "dissected" in casual conversation before you at a state dinner table. Or being asked to join in a toast to Marie Antonette's death. "Drinking her own mother" is a metaphor for having to drink a toast to her family's murder.

Maybe they are using some biography of the events as their source for this "tale". They haven't quoted anything yet, but it's pretty clear they are following some storyline of Napoleon-Josephine-Marie Louise in their Nick-Juliette-Adalind story in season 4/5.

I will say @Lin S. you have a unique way of looking a the series so you have unique posts and threads. That said I don't see a lot of Shakespeare or history in the series. Some posts have reseach on the history of the 13 century crusades and the keys adding the 600 years Renard says it took the royals to get the 4 keys we are into the Napoleon time frame. Add the King of Portugal when to Brazil to get away from Napoleon only came up because of all the times Brazil is referenced in the series.

To your idea on did Adalind drink her mother you said "why" I see this as no she didn't to answer your question she drank a potion made from her dead hexen mother. The only one she could find. Later if she needs or wants her powers back could she use Henrietta body to undo the potion? What would the why be then? After the potion was run thru the hat was there anything of the mother left or did the hat change the very potion? How powerful is the hat I believe the hat is what made Juliette a hexen, so I believe the hat may the most powerful object on Grimm to date.

She did this to prove the potion worked to save herself from Juliette, but this and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee.

What do you see above? There is a saying that you can't see what you can't believe.

Nick sees wesen. But then Nick believes there are wesen in the world. Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them.

Grimm producers say they base their storylines on fairy tales but does Nick know that? No. Nick doesn't know he's a TV show either.

You have to believe it is possible before your mind will let you recognize it. In Grimm terms you have to read the fairy tale to recognize the fairy tale. I don't see the similiarities between the quotes and what happens in the episode many times if it is a Japanese or American Indian myth. I know they are quoted in the episode but I don't see the "story". Does that mean it isn't there?

As to the idea that you have to believe first then you can see it. That is a very fairy tale sort of idea. Wendy in Peter Pan can "see" fairies because she believes in them. The adults in the story can't. Why? Is there something wrong with their optical equipment? No, it's a matter of belief.

But then you might say what about people who think they "see" space aliens and little green men. Should we believe everything other people think they see? Aren't such people crazy?

Well that question is addressed in Grimm too. Nick doesn't want to tell Hank or Wu he is a Grimm at first. He knows they will think he is crazy like Juliette did. In fact Wu gets put in a mental hospital in a couple of scenes because he thinks he sees a Wesen. Was Wu crazy or not?

That is the question of Grimm. You can't see it if you can't imagine it in the first place, but how do you know what you think you see is real?

You test it against reality. If it is real you should be able to predict it's future movements.

That's what I do. I have read the stories quoted in the Grimm episode after the show has aired. Then gone back and watched the episode a second time looking for simiiarities to the story. If I find them fine. If I don't I don't. But I can't find them until I have read them and looked for them.

And the way I test to see if what I see is really there, is to try to predict what the characters will do next. If Grimm is following a story already written and published, then I should be able to read ahead and predict what will happen. If what I predict doesn't turn out to be true then I have to rethink my thesis. So I go online to ask other people if they see what I see.

That's a very good in depth fan creation that you enjoy. I don't get into the storyline to that depth. History I get into for the facts, but fantasy or horror I watch for the mystery.

I watch for did the writers keep the characters in character or if not how did they change them was that done correctly. Like they way the changed Juliette from my point didn't work, because they left out the how. Now I would not stop watching because of the that because Grimm wasn't about Juliette.

When I go to a movie I watch the complete movie even if it doesn't work because I don't want to hear someone say well you left just before it got good I know better from my point of view. I hated most movies in the 70's because they didn't have a clear ending I may not like or agree with the ending but I want an ending.

When I read a book I want it to have an ending even if I don't agree. Most people like the Lord of Rings books I didn't because the first one I read didn't end. Terry Brooks writes the same type of book but his books ends the next may be in the same series but you don't have to read them in order each of his books have a story with a complete story then end.

It may seem that I don't have a good "Imagination" but in fact I do I just don't want to use my imagination or how I would do it. I want the read the author's imagination.

If you think about with all the centuries of writing it would very hard to come up with a plot that doesn't likely have some past connection to something. The same thing applies to movies also. The movie Avatar was a remake (my opinion) of Dances with Wolves.

In your outline you said "Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them", but even after you or they know wesen exist they still can't see them because they don't have the cones in their eyes only a Grimm has so believing in wesen can't make you able to see wesen.

Thanks for making we think even if does cost hair. (That's an inside joke if you want to know I'll send you a PM)

I want to know but I don't know how to send a pm on this forum. Perhaps it is because I do not believe hard enough. Please send the pm. Thank you


you said: I watch for did the writers keep the characters in character or if not how did they change them was that done correctly. Like they way the changed Juliette from my point didn't work, because they left out the how

Yes. It's from your point of view. Therefore we talk online and you get another point of view, and looked from a different angle maybe there was a "how". So I will offer my different angle and you can see a "how". You may not like the how, but hey, what the heck here it goes:

The reason I started seeing the fairy tales is because I got frustrated with Nick's character in the first season. He was this modern man who was an equalitarian with his girl friend. Respected her intelligence. Shared decision with her in every thing and then this one thing comes up and he acts out of character. He keeps information from Juliette. I felt like he was treating her like a child. Then I thought about it. What if I am right and he is "treating her like a child". What if his motivations are not that of a modern man but those of a medieval father? That fits much better. Now why would Nick be acting like a medieval father? Because he's in a fairy tale. He's not functioning on his own cultural values, but unaware of it, he's functioning on medieval ones.

Why would anyone do that? Well because children when they are pre-verbal pick up their parent's mannerisms. They don't know what their parents are thinking. They just know what facial expression they make when Mommy says X.

When that child grows up, he makes that same face when his girl friend or whatever says X and that same idea that mommy had pops into the back of his head now too. The man can't see his own face so he doesn't know what he is doing. People are always surprised when they see themselves in a video. They didn't know they had that "tic" or way of talking. You can see everyone else clearly, but you are behind the camera of your eye, so you can't see yourself.

Now back to that man who makes the expression like his mother. When you imitate a reaction you can trigger the same thoughts in yourself. They tell you to smile when you are on the phone because the friendliness comes through your voice.

Now back even further to that pre-verbal child who recorded and remembered all those facial expressions of their parents. Where did their parents get those facial expression from themselves? From their parents. And where did their parents get their expressions from? Their parents.

So it is very possible to make a decision in your conscious mind to believe in Y. To say you believe that women are the equal of men. And you think that is how you act all the time. But it is possible. Even likely that sometimes, when you are tired and not paying attention, your mind is foggy, your've been drinking, etc. that you fall back on the automatic behaviors you recorded as a child from your parents. When you do that, and everybody does, you are acting as if you believe X, even though your conscious brain says it believes Y.

This is how both prejudices and values can be passed down through generations.

So how did it happen that Nick had a change of behavior different from his other actions before? Because he is a Grimm to everyone else but not himself. He doesn't know himself well yet.

How did Juliette change? She got into a stressful situation she wasn't prepared for and reverted to learned behavior in her past. She probably gave him the hexenbiest expression she saw on her mother's face that originated back in great grandma's day.

If that is true then it means that the Hexenbiest was always in Juliette. It had just never had a reason or opportunity to come out before. That changes the value system. Did the potion make Juliette a hexenbiest and therefore the people who gave it to her are to blame? Or did they free the hexenbiest that was there waiting to come out, and whose fault is that? So the "how" that they didn't explain, I substituded what I know about real human behavior and concluded that maybe what Grimm is showing us is that Nick and the Scooby's viewpoint is, in fact, wrong, it doesn't fit the facts. Therefore they are blaming the potion for "creating" wesen when wesen exist in the deep dark recesses of all of us.

Since how isn't explained in the terms that would fit a potion. Then the conclusion could be the potion didn't do it at all. If the facts don't fit the conclusion, consider changing your conclusion.

(10-13-2015, 08:44 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 03:51 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 03:30 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 01:22 PM)Lin S. Wrote:

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: I will say @Lin S. you have a unique way of looking a the series so you have unique posts and threads. That said I don't see a lot of Shakespeare or history in the series. Some posts have reseach on the history of the 13 century crusades and the keys adding the 600 years Renard says it took the royals to get the 4 keys we are into the Napoleon time frame. Add the King of Portugal when to Brazil to get away from Napoleon only came up because of all the times Brazil is referenced in the series.

To your idea on did Adalind drink her mother you said "why" I see this as no she didn't to answer your question she drank a potion made from her dead hexen mother. The only one she could find. Later if she needs or wants her powers back could she use Henrietta body to undo the potion? What would the why be then? After the potion was run thru the hat was there anything of the mother left or did the hat change the very potion? How powerful is the hat I believe the hat is what made Juliette a hexen, so I believe the hat may the most powerful object on Grimm to date.

She did this to prove the potion worked to save herself from Juliette, but this and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee.

What do you see above? There is a saying that you can't see what you can't believe.

Nick sees wesen. But then Nick believes there are wesen in the world. Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them.

Grimm producers say they base their storylines on fairy tales but does Nick know that? No. Nick doesn't know he's a TV show either.

You have to believe it is possible before your mind will let you recognize it. In Grimm terms you have to read the fairy tale to recognize the fairy tale. I don't see the similiarities between the quotes and what happens in the episode many times if it is a Japanese or American Indian myth. I know they are quoted in the episode but I don't see the "story". Does that mean it isn't there?

As to the idea that you have to believe first then you can see it. That is a very fairy tale sort of idea. Wendy in Peter Pan can "see" fairies because she believes in them. The adults in the story can't. Why? Is there something wrong with their optical equipment? No, it's a matter of belief.

But then you might say what about people who think they "see" space aliens and little green men. Should we believe everything other people think they see? Aren't such people crazy?

Well that question is addressed in Grimm too. Nick doesn't want to tell Hank or Wu he is a Grimm at first. He knows they will think he is crazy like Juliette did. In fact Wu gets put in a mental hospital in a couple of scenes because he thinks he sees a Wesen. Was Wu crazy or not?

That is the question of Grimm. You can't see it if you can't imagine it in the first place, but how do you know what you think you see is real?

You test it against reality. If it is real you should be able to predict it's future movements.

That's what I do. I have read the stories quoted in the Grimm episode after the show has aired. Then gone back and watched the episode a second time looking for simiiarities to the story. If I find them fine. If I don't I don't. But I can't find them until I have read them and looked for them.

And the way I test to see if what I see is really there, is to try to predict what the characters will do next. If Grimm is following a story already written and published, then I should be able to read ahead and predict what will happen. If what I predict doesn't turn out to be true then I have to rethink my thesis. So I go online to ask other people if they see what I see.

That's a very good in depth fan creation that you enjoy. I don't get into the storyline to that depth. History I get into for the facts, but fantasy or horror I watch for the mystery.

I watch for did the writers keep the characters in character or if not how did they change them was that done correctly. Like they way the changed Juliette from my point didn't work, because they left out the how. Now I would not stop watching because of the that because Grimm wasn't about Juliette.

When I go to a movie I watch the complete movie even if it doesn't work because I don't want to hear someone say well you left just before it got good I know better from my point of view. I hated most movies in the 70's because they didn't have a clear ending I may not like or agree with the ending but I want an ending.

When I read a book I want it to have an ending even if I don't agree. Most people like the Lord of Rings books I didn't because the first one I read didn't end. Terry Brooks writes the same type of book but his books ends the next may be in the same series but you don't have to read them in order each of his books have a story with a complete story then end.

It may seem that I don't have a good "Imagination" but in fact I do I just don't want to use my imagination or how I would do it. I want the read the author's imagination.

If you think about with all the centuries of writing it would very hard to come up with a plot that doesn't likely have some past connection to something. The same thing applies to movies also. The movie Avatar was a remake (my opinion) of Dances with Wolves.

In your outline you said "Juliette in season one didn't believe they existed so she couldn't see them", but even after you or they know wesen exist they still can't see them because they don't have the cones in their eyes only a Grimm has so believing in wesen can't make you able to see wesen.

Thanks for making we think even if does cost hair. (That's an inside joke if you want to know I'll send you a PM)

I want to know but I don't know how to send a pm on this forum. Perhaps it is because I do not believe hard enough. Please send the pm. Thank you


you said: I watch for did the writers keep the characters in character or if not how did they change them was that done correctly. Like they way the changed Juliette from my point didn't work, because they left out the how

Yes. It's from your point of view. Therefore we talk online and you get another point of view, and looked from a different angle maybe there was a "how". So I will offer my different angle and you can see a "how". You may not like the how, but hey, what the heck here it goes:

The reason I started seeing the fairy tales is because I got frustrated with Nick's character in the first season. He was this modern man who was an equalitarian with his girl friend. Respected her intelligence. Shared decision with her in every thing and then this one thing comes up and he acts out of character. He keeps information from Juliette. I felt like he was treating her like a child. Then I thought about it. What if I am right and he is "treating her like a child". What if his motivations are not that of a modern man but those of a medieval father? That fits much better. Now why would Nick be acting like a medieval father? Because he's in a fairy tale. He's not functioning on his own cultural values, but unaware of it, he's functioning on medieval ones.

Why would anyone do that? Well because children when they are pre-verbal pick up their parent's mannerisms. They don't know what their parents are thinking. They just know what facial expression they make when Mommy says X.

When that child grows up, he makes that same face when his girl friend or whatever says X and that same idea that mommy had pops into the back of his head now too. The man can't see his own face so he doesn't know what he is doing. People are always surprised when they see themselves in a video. They didn't know they had that "tic" or way of talking. You can see everyone else clearly, but you are behind the camera of your eye, so you can't see yourself.

Now back to that man who makes the expression like his mother. When you imitate a reaction you can trigger the same thoughts in yourself. They tell you to smile when you are on the phone because the friendliness comes through your voice.

Now back even further to that pre-verbal child who recorded and remembered all those facial expressions of their parents. Where did their parents get those facial expression from themselves? From their parents. And where did their parents get their expressions from? Their parents.

So it is very possible to make a decision in your conscious mind to believe in Y. To say you believe that women are the equal of men. And you think that is how you act all the time. But it is possible. Even likely that sometimes, when you are tired and not paying attention, your mind is foggy, your've been drinking, etc. that you fall back on the automatic behaviors you recorded as a child from your parents. When you do that, and everybody does, you are acting as if you believe X, even though your conscious brain says it believes Y.

This is how both prejudices and values can be passed down through generations.

So how did it happen that Nick had a change of behavior different from his other actions before? Because he is a Grimm to everyone else but not himself. He doesn't know himself well yet.

How did Juliette change? She got into a stressful situation she wasn't prepared for and reverted to learned behavior in her past. She probably gave him the hexenbiest expression she saw on her mother's face that originated back in great grandma's day.

If that is true then it means that the Hexenbiest was always in Juliette. It had just never had a reason or opportunity to come out before. That changes the value system. Did the potion make Juliette a hexenbiest and therefore the people who gave it to her are to blame? Or did they free the hexenbiest that was there waiting to come out, and whose fault is that? So the "how" that they didn't explain, I substituded what I know about real human behavior and concluded that maybe what Grimm is showing us is that Nick and the Scooby's viewpoint is, in fact, wrong, it doesn't fit the facts. Therefore they are blaming the potion for "creating" wesen when wesen exist in the deep dark recesses of all of us.

Since how isn't explained in the terms that would fit a potion. Then the conclusion could be the potion didn't do it at all. If the facts don't fit the conclusion, consider changing your conclusion.

Other posts have come up with the Grimm blood in Adalind as Henrietta said was the reason his blood wouldn't cure Juliette. So it is possible that Grimm blood in and of itself is a potion. Also possible the hat used was made to create hexens. See I do look at other points of view and I like the forum for the input on the views. I read and watch programs for entertainment I like the forum add to the entertainment by the debates. I always said the forum is like reading and good book but also writing it.

These other posts may or may not be correct but unless the writers correct this we will never know for sure only guessing. I like to think and hope that my total life experiences have created the today's person. Other posts are correct that books, movie, and tv series always have gaps the viewer has to fill in. I agree with that.

In the first season Nick was new to the game of Grimm need Monroe's help to learn on the night she went into a coma he was bring her into the picture. Look at how she reacted before the coma thinking he was crazy. I have and insight most don't on somethings.