Quote:If she were the unfeeling hexenbiest she would have left with the royals. She would be a very valuable asset to them. First, she's a rare and unusual hexenbiest. The royals would definitely look upon her as special and more than likely would make it a priority to find a hexenbiest who could help her deal with her new found powers. Once she became proficient in her powers, she could be the ultimate weapon for them. Second, she has something no one else has; exclusive knowledge of Nick. She was his partner, his friend, his confidante, and his lover for many years. What if her knowledge yielded a weakness that could be used against him? Third, she could become very rich, and live whatever lifestyle she wanted. Juliette the complete and total hexenbiest would have taken that deal. Juliette the human did not. She instead returned home.

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: Adriano, I think what you're saying here is that death set Juliette free. If she had lived, she would have been even more miserable because no one, possibly not even Sean, would have anything to do with her.

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: Also, she really had lost most of her humanity and was not capable of feeling. Am I correct? If I'm not let me know. But if I am, here are some thoughts I have.

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: I have been wondering for a while now why Juliette went back to the house. She had her escape well in hand and I have no doubt the royals would have treated her well. So why then did she go back?

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: You mentioned that if Juliette lived in Season 5 that you believe no one would have anything to do with her. But doesn't that prove she's still human then? That she's hanging around in the hope that she'll get that life back that she lost? Maybe that's the reason why she went back to the house. Even if Nick killed her, she's alive for that moment, back in her house.

If she were the unfeeling hexenbiest she would have left with the royals. She would be a very valuable asset to them. First, she's a rare and unusual hexenbiest. The royals would definitely look upon her as special and more than likely would make it a priority to find a hexenbiest who could help her deal with her new found powers. Once she became proficient in her powers, she could be the ultimate weapon for them. Second, she has something no one else has; exclusive knowledge of Nick. She was his partner, his friend, his confidante, and his lover for many years. What if her knowledge yielded a weakness that could be used against him? Third, she could become very rich, and live whatever lifestyle she wanted. Juliette the complete and total hexenbiest would have taken that deal. Juliette the human did not. She instead returned home.

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: What I'm trying to say here is that I can't see her death as a gift because I don't believe now that she wanted to die.

(06-12-2015, 09:11 PM)irukandji Wrote: I think she wanted to live and live among the people she knew so well.

(06-13-2015, 05:06 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:

Quote:If she were the unfeeling hexenbiest she would have left with the royals. She would be a very valuable asset to them. First, she's a rare and unusual hexenbiest. The royals would definitely look upon her as special and more than likely would make it a priority to find a hexenbiest who could help her deal with her new found powers. Once she became proficient in her powers, she could be the ultimate weapon for them. Second, she has something no one else has; exclusive knowledge of Nick. She was his partner, his friend, his confidante, and his lover for many years. What if her knowledge yielded a weakness that could be used against him? Third, she could become very rich, and live whatever lifestyle she wanted. Juliette the complete and total hexenbiest would have taken that deal. Juliette the human did not. She instead returned home.

This. Regardless of what Juliette did when she was actually IN the house, not a lot of people seem to be paying attention to the strange fact that she went BACK to the house in the first place.

(06-13-2015, 08:15 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: You believe Juliette is still human. I do too. But does Monroe? Does Rosale? Does Sean? Doesn't matter if this it or not fair. I can't see they accepting her eassyly.

My point is: What is the consequences of what happend in seasson 4 for them in seasson 5.
and

[quote='Adriano Neres Rodrigues' pid='14076' dateline='1434208506']
As i said. this logic you put was my starting point for my prior post. I am considering Juliette someone that are still human. The direction I wanted to give to the discution was not what we think about her (or about Nick). But what the others characteres think about them and how they would react to them in seasson 5.

and

[quote='Adriano Neres Rodrigues' pid='14076' dateline='1434208506']
Again, just trying to have new perspectives in this subject, she wants to live among the people she knew so well. But would they wanted that too? If no, wouldn't that bring more suffering to the humanity inside Juliette?

That is the reason of my question: In the end, thinking about consequencies (not in our desires or the characteres desires...) Wouldn't her death ended up been some freedon to the humanity in her?

(06-13-2015, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(06-13-2015, 08:15 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: You believe Juliette is still human. I do too. But does Monroe? Does Rosale? Does Sean? Doesn't matter if this it or not fair. I can't see they accepting her eassyly.

My point is: What is the consequences of what happend in seasson 4 for them in seasson 5.
and

[quote='Adriano Neres Rodrigues' pid='14076' dateline='1434208506']
As i said. this logic you put was my starting point for my prior post. I am considering Juliette someone that are still human. The direction I wanted to give to the discution was not what we think about her (or about Nick). But what the others characteres think about them and how they would react to them in seasson 5.

and

[quote='Adriano Neres Rodrigues' pid='14076' dateline='1434208506']
Again, just trying to have new perspectives in this subject, she wants to live among the people she knew so well. But would they wanted that too? If no, wouldn't that bring more suffering to the humanity inside Juliette?

That is the reason of my question: In the end, thinking about consequencies (not in our desires or the characteres desires...) Wouldn't her death ended up been some freedon to the humanity in her?

I put these quotes together because they all point toward your question. Which, by the way, is a very good question. Also, thank you for the clarification. I wanted to make sure I was on the right path here.

I'll begin with Monroe and Rosalee. Monroe is among my favorites because he actually looked past the Grimm in Nick and saw the human. Every once in a while someone says something about the show that gets me to really thinking. I credit one of those somethings to Hexenadler. The comment was that the show is about acceptance. There were some sound boos on that because, after all, this is Grimm. But it stuck with me, and Hexenadler is correct. While it doesn't happen often, there are examples of unprejudiced acceptance. One of the biggest examples of that occurred with Monroe.

He is among my favorite characters in Grimm because of something he did at the very beginning. He looked past the Grimm in Nick and saw the human in him. Top 10 Grimm moment in my opinion. And so they became friends and colleagues. It's obvious from the scene that Nick was reluctant to take the same tactic. Had Monroe not taken that first step, the outcome of the program would have been a different one.

So back to Juliette. Monroe knows the difficulties involved in dealing with wesen, from dealing with his own wesen side to being targeted by other wesen. Part of that is due to his friendship with Nick. And Nick himself isn't always the friend he could be. I know Monroe has to woge from time to time so Nick can prove to people that there are wesen out there. But I always find things like that degrading. Monroe isn't a dog and pony show for Nick to command simply in order to prove his point.

Rosalie came on to the scene and was attracted to Monroe right away and vice versa. This, despite the fact that she is a different species of wesen. Generally speaking, regardless of who comes through the spice shop door, she helps them. She also has befriended Nick and with his assistance, has helped some of the wesen who don't mean to hurt anyone. Without prejudice even though it might go against her very nature.

Monroe and Rosalee go out of their way to help Nick, even if it's something on the not so noble side (like woging so he can prove they exist). We all believe that they're good people because they've proven it time and time again. We believe they're willing to look past the painfully obvious to find the real being underneath because they've done it so many times. So the answer to your question in my opinion? Yes, we have to believe they believe Juliette is still human because these are not some strangers on the street. They're Monroe and Rosalee, who practice acceptance. And Juliette was a good and kind friend, loyal to them even at risk to her own life.

That to me is why the spice shop scene or the preceding episodes before it involving Juliette's tranformation make no sense. Rosalee and Monroe would never give up on Juliette because she suddenly became aloof. Those two wouldn't have left her alone, period. After all they've seen, do you believe they really and truly would be so appalled at her to the extent they decided to distance themselves from her? I don't.

As for Sean, I actually give him a few snaps for this one. He tried to help her because he understood. And he came through for Juliette when she was in her coma. Would he blame her for the death of his father? I can't see that happening. It would be just as easy for him to blame Nick or Hank or Wu for that. I don't think he has any issues in deciding if she's still human or not. He knows she is.

If Juliette were to return and the series' writers decided none of these people could forgive her so she's the shunned one, it'll be a major blow to the show. I guarantee it. People may hate her, but they love Monroe, Rosalie, and Sean. It would be completely out of their character to shun Juliette.

(06-13-2015, 05:35 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: That is why I really got mad about the writers this seasson. The character's actions are completely diferente from what they were suposed to do based on what they did on the prior 3 seassons. When I wrote "I can't see they accepting her eassyly.", it is exclussively based on seasson 4... because if we look back all seassons.... well, seasson 4 is out of the contexto... Actually this is my impression.

I will just not agree with you about Sean. I quoted him in the list, but I don't trust him. Actually, he is the one with his own agenda... and his agenda is over any friendship he has.

He would help Juliette, but if he had to choose her or his agenda... he would choose his agenda. And probably he would in same point use her in his plans. We must not forget that Sean ordered autn Mary death.... He put Adelaind in Nick's and Juliette's life in the first place ordering for the key... Because of Sean, Adelaind used a potion in Hank that almost kill Wu.

You posted about the Juliette's coma... I remember that Adelaind's mother asked him why he was helpping. He answered that without Juliette Nick would leave Portland... And he (Sean) need Nick there. So, Sean didn't help Juliette... He acted under his own agenda and what he could gain from that.

(06-13-2015, 06:10 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(06-13-2015, 05:35 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: That is why I really got mad about the writers this seasson. The character's actions are completely diferente from what they were suposed to do based on what they did on the prior 3 seassons. When I wrote "I can't see they accepting her eassyly.", it is exclussively based on seasson 4... because if we look back all seassons.... well, seasson 4 is out of the contexto... Actually this is my impression.

I will just not agree with you about Sean. I quoted him in the list, but I don't trust him. Actually, he is the one with his own agenda... and his agenda is over any friendship he has.

He would help Juliette, but if he had to choose her or his agenda... he would choose his agenda. And probably he would in same point use her in his plans. We must not forget that Sean ordered autn Mary death.... He put Adelaind in Nick's and Juliette's life in the first place ordering for the key... Because of Sean, Adelaind used a potion in Hank that almost kill Wu.

You posted about the Juliette's coma... I remember that Adelaind's mother asked him why he was helpping. He answered that without Juliette Nick would leave Portland... And he (Sean) need Nick there. So, Sean didn't help Juliette... He acted under his own agenda and what he could gain from that.

Adriano, your argument cannot go both ways. I think what you're saying here is that you are looking at the characters from season 4 only.

Okay fine. But if that's the case, then you cannot bring up Sean's agenda from season 2.

I, however, would prefer to look at the characters from first season to current. You bring up a very good point about Sean and in my opinion that is something that should be brought up. It gives a more rounded view of his character.

Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:
As i said. this logic you put was my starting point for my prior post. I am considering Juliette someone that are still human. The direction I wanted to give to the discution was not what we think about her (or about Nick). But what the others characteres think about them and how they would react to them in seasson 5.

You believe Juliette is still human. I do too. But does Monroe? Does Rosale? Does Sean? Doesn't matter if this it or not fair. I can't see they accepting her eassyly.

My point is: What is the consequences of what happend in seasson 4 for them in seasson 5.

(06-13-2015, 09:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: A question here, Adriano, Why would Monroe or Rosalee believe Juliette is no longer human?

(06-14-2015, 06:52 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:

(06-13-2015, 09:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: A question here, Adriano, Why would Monroe or Rosalee believe Juliette is no longer human?

I used the word human but I don’t think this is the correct question/perspective here. My point would be based more in trust and friendship. When I made the question it was more to provoke the debate. As I said before, I was basing my answer on last season more them in the show as a whole.
After I read your question, I thought about it and that why I took some time to answer.
Going by topics....

-> The dynamic
I will base my arguments in a dynamic that I can see developing in the relation between the Nick/Rosale/Monroe and Juliette in the least season. They were acting over chain of actions, expectations, perspectives and reactions and the reaction being the action of the following cycle. Sometimes I will not write about the character expectation for any reasons. But while reading my post, always remember that I am trying to guess characters’ expectations/interpretations in it situation.
As an example, I will use the spice shop scene (that one that should have not happened). That scene started with the group asking Juliette to drink a potion made by Adelaind. This was the Nick/Rosale/Monroe action. Their expectation was that Juliette dunk the potion and come back to normal (this was stupid from them… blame the writers…). By Juliette side, her expectation was to have friends saying: I am by your side what ever you choose to came back normal or not. If they did this first, maybe she would say I want to go normal… They could have said: Adelaind has a way to help. And Juliette could have accept or not… But the way they did, Juliette felt betrayed by them (this was Juliette reaction. They were stupid, I agree. But she could have trusted them a little bit more… I am not defending/atacking the group or Juliette here… I am just pointing out how a different action from both sides would have done things diferent).
Feeling threatened, Juliette’s reaction was to attack (not blaming her…) destroying the potion. The group reaction was aggressive too taking the guns… Juliette reaction was even more aggressive pointing Nick’s gun to Monroe, showing that if she wanted, they all would be dead. One possible reaction of the group could have be: she still likes us because she didn’t kill any of us. But their reaction, manly from Rosale, was: I am done of trying to help her.
Just because of this quote I think Rosale didn’t believe “Juliette’s humanity” any more… Actually, looking in another direction, as I don’t think this is the real question here… If Juliette was still alive in season 5, she would have not support from Rosale simply because in that moment Rosale had already give up on Juliette. I know that this argument is not strong enouth if we consider your explanation about all the show. But at this point, I am trying to see what direction things are going from this point. If we see all the show as you did, we should’nt have got here…


-> Why did they use different strategy for similar situations?
Believing they were trying to help Juliette, they simply asked her to dink a potion made by Adelaind. Even after Juliette burned the trailer.
Trying to help Sean to drink the “death” potion so they could send Jack away, they cheated Sean so he would drink the potion.
Aparently similar situations. They needed a frined to drink a magical potion to help this friend with a subject (Talking about expectations, Juliette wanted to be helped by acceptance… her friends believe she needed restoration and that she wanted restoration).
One possible answer for this question that came to my mind is that they believed that Sean was not in full control of his actions. So, they were not cheating Sean, but the spirit (Jack) that was the threat to be eliminated. Thinking this way, the group would not put in Sean account any threat he made to them.
In Juliette’s case, they believed she was in full control of her actions and that by this she was able to think, to understand her friends intentions and to drink the potion in free will. If they believe she was out of her mind, like being controled by the hexanbiest spirit, they would have find a way to cheat Juliette to drink the potion just like they did with Sean. This way, they believed every Juliette’s action was intentional and that she was full responsible for them. This can explain why Rosalee gave up on Juliette after the Spice Shop incident.

-> The ball is rolling
We have already discussed here how those actions affected Juliette’s decisions. Juliette’s actions affected the group decisions too. None of them tried to understand the other side expectations and, by doing this, adapt their actions to the other side expectation and ending up stopping the aggressively action / reaction they were having to each other. This put them in an enemy game… I mean, they ended up seeing each other as enemies more them friends with broken relationship that need to be restored.
Actually, we can say that Juliette was not acting as enemy, if she was Monroe would be dead. She was trying to show that she can be a threat but she isn’t. But the reactions of the other characters indicates that they were interpreting (or starting to) this in a different way… She is an enemy to be avoided.

-> The call for the death
Irukandji, by your posts I believe you are really upset because Nick called Juliette’s death. In this analyses I will consider this as the last stage of the ball is rolling example I gave above. I mean that, if not until now, Nick declared that for him Juliette is enemy and as this she must die. I am not discussing if he is wrong or right in this, I am just point out what Nick’s actions indicates.
But I have a question for you here, not to provoke you, but to bring a new element here. Why blame or be upset only with Nick? He was not alone there. Trubel listened the order (and she obeyed killing her in the end)… So Hank listened too… I don’t remember Rosalee was in the room too, but for sure Monroe was. No one of them, neither Monroe defended Juliette, or argued with Nick… or Answered that he/she would not be able to kill Juliette. All of them accepted Nicks decision and went to HUNT her and the royals.
This indicates that the group agreed with Nick in that call… So, they agreed with Nick that Juliette should be treated as enemy. And if they find them, they all agreed that she must die.
After the Spice shop, Rosale gave up on Juliette… After Nick’s call for Juliette’s death, Monroe agreed with him… ate least by omission.
Just to point out, all of this indicates that the ball is rolling against Juliette.

-> In the house, she was still the enemy in Nick’s eyes
Juliette went back to Nick’s / Juliette’s house. I confess that I don’t remember anymore the details, so forgive if there is some mistake bellow, but…
As far as I remember, Juliette started the talk trying to raise the white flag (originaly my impression was that she was playing him… but now after our talk, I am not so sure…). She asked for some kind of help asking him to kill her.
Nick’s reactions indicate he still saw her as enemy: I am done of fighting, he said. In other words Nick was saying that as Juliette was enemy, there just two options for them: fight or let each other go.
Juliette’s reaction was samething like: as you see me as enemy, let’s act like enemies…. So she started to attack him… Here we have got to the original question of the thread: would Juliette have killed Nick?
Trubel believed that yes, Juliette would have killed Nick… So she killed Juliette first.

-> Season 5 – how all of this affect the future?
After all of that, let’s imagine that Juliette survive Trubel’s arrows. Doesn’t matter Juliette’s real intentions. Trubel’s description of what she saw will say to Monroe and Rosale that Juliette would have killed Nick if Trubel didn’t shoot her.

-> Conclussion
So everything, until now, are getting Juliette apart from Monroe and Rosale.
I know that many of those argues can be criticized if we consider all four seassons, and not just the last one. I also know that things can be different if some of them stop the negative rolling ball and the other accept the, last call, “good will act”.
But based in what I have wrote above, there are some obstacles that must be by passed:
1. Apparently Juliette wants to be accepted in her new form while Rosalee and Monroe wants to change her back in what she was. One of them will have to change the expectation.
2. Even if Rosale and Monroe accept Juliette as hexabiest, as I have wrote above, they consider Juliette responsible for their actions (differently of Sean). A point here is that all of them are helping Adelaind, but none of them trust her… so, they would help Juliette, but trust and being friend again would take time.
3. If Juliette became normal again, as I said above, Rosale and Monroe still consider Juliette for their actions. As I argued above, their actions indicate that they didn’t consider Juliette anything like being controlled by a hexanbiest spirit.
Certainly there are other ways to see those episodes described above. At this time, those are the points I am taking from season 4 that indicates to me that Monroe and Rosalee would not accept Juliette easily, at least not after some time of re-adaptation.