+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Spoilers (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Spoilers)
+---- Forum: Season 4 Spoilers (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Season-4-Spoilers)
+---- Thread: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? (/Thread-Would-Juliette-really-have-killed-Nick)
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Nickster - 06-11-2015
(06-10-2015, 10:11 AM)irukandji Wrote: As for Kelly's death, we need to keep in mind that Nick has absolutely no proof Juliette set it up. All he recalls is the computer mouse has been moved. As a detective, he cannot lay blame until he knows for sure she was involved.
The fact is that she helped in getting Kelly killed. It's irrelevant if Nick has no proof of it, but he does have proof and hopefully a brain WITH common sense.
1. Her ashen fingerprint, right after she burned the trailer which was a distraction so Nick and his guy friends will go to the trailer.
2. Her confession.
3. The mere fact that only Juliette had access to their computer and their house.
Any one with common sense can realize that Juliette was involved in kelly's death. I don't know why you're saying Nick has no proof- it sounds like you're trying to remove Juliette from her involvement in Kelly's death.
(06-10-2015, 10:11 AM)irukandji Wrote: One final thing..... where is all this compassion that these wesen and Nick are supposed to have? Instead of helping Juliette, and I mean really helping her, they plot behind her back. It really is a small wonder she didn't kill Nick. But I still think if she wanted him dead, he'd have been gone long before that night.
He did have compassion. If you count not kissing her rotting gums as being cold, then you really need to have a reality check. Nick was acting in character. He is repulsed by hexenbiests. Just because Juliette turned into one, he's supposed to get rid of his disgust of them overnight? Because it's special marysue juliette? NO.
And how many of us will be willing to kiss something disgusting like a hexenbiest face? Not me. The majority of humans will not kiss a beast like that. Some of us maybe with our weird tastes and freaky attitude.
But she had no lips to kiss with anyways. He stayed true to himself but not kissing her in her biest form. Otherwise he would have been a hypocrite. The amount of times he's been disgusted with Adalind's woged face. If Nick had no compassion, he would have left the house and leave her to her own devices. He felt that it was wrong of her to lose her human-ness and be turned into something so disgusting. She wasn't born this way and he wanted to help her restore herself. This is his POV and I don't blame him.
She was literally a zombie. When someone is infected, you treat them. She was infected. Like it or not, Juliette was infected with Hexenbiest disease and it wasn't doing any good for her.
Plus he is an idiot for keeping her in his life for his own selfishness and has been a bit stupid and slow at times but he was trying to help her. He's not perfect and it was demonstrated in when dealing with the hexenbiest Juliette. He was acting in character and not suddenly gary stu. She on the other hand, is clearly antagonistic towards him and expects him to betray his own nature just for her sake?
(06-10-2015, 10:11 AM)irukandji Wrote: When she woged in front of Nick for the first time, he looked like he was about to puke at the sight of her. Not only that, he refused to sleep with her or be near her. Not too long afterwards, he removed all of the pictures of her. Juliette's not stupid. Nick made it plain he no longer loved her.
Of course he would not want to sleep with a hexenbiest. OMG, you probably would (if they existed in real life) but it's not in his character to willingly sleep with a hexenbiest. Does that mean Nick stopped loving her? No, he still loved her. He cried when she was dying in his arms. If he stopped loving her, he would celebrate her death. He loves the old juliette- the one he fell in love with. Not the crazy new one. Personally I don't get why he would still love a biest like her, after all the crap she's done.
Nick only took the photos down after she left him because seeing them HURT him. It hurt because he felt like a failure. He felt as if he was solely responsible for her becoming a hexenbiest.
(06-10-2015, 10:11 AM)irukandji Wrote: Juliette never said Nick was guilty for her suffering, nor did she threaten him in any way.
Um. Yes she did. "You all have a hand in this!" & "You made me, get used to it."
She threatened him in many ways. She took control of his body to shoot Monroe. She threatened to kill his unborn child MANY times. She again made it clear it's safer for him if she's jailed- HEAVILY implying that she can hurt him.
So I don't know where you've been- have you been even watching grimm? And taking notes of Juliette's attitude? You sound like a half-informed juliette apologist and it's terrible.
NOTE AT IRUKANDJI: You are not going to understand what I've just said because you are adamant in sticking to your opinions which is fine if you're not trying to shove it down people's throats. First forget of your bias towards Juliette (yes I am willing to see her POV too so I'm not a hypocrite), watch the last few epis of Grimm extensively then I'll take you seriously
You should really take your own advice. Especially with using the brain. As I've not defended Juliette at all in my post, you're doing that for me and others. IN fact, you're going all out for her, including stuff that's not even true about her.
It's YOUR posts that are a waste of bandwidth. And thank you. I was trying so hard to insult you rather than debate with you. Glad to see it worked.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-11-2015
Quote:Nickster wrote: The fact is that she helped in getting Kelly killed. It's irrelevant if Nick has no proof of it, but he does have proof and hopefully a brain WITH common sense.
1. Her ashen fingerprint, right after she burned the trailer which was a distraction so Nick and his guy friends will go to the trailer.
2. Her confession.
3. The mere fact that only Juliette had access to their computer and their house.
Any one with common sense can realize that Juliette was involved in kelly's death. I don't know why you're saying Nick has no proof- it sounds like you're trying to remove Juliette from her involvement in Kelly's death.
What ashen fingerprint? What confession?
Quote:Nickster wrote: He did have compassion. If you count not kissing her rotting gums as being cold, then you really need to have a reality check. Nick was acting in character. He is repulsed by hexenbiests. Just because Juliette turned into one, he's supposed to get rid of his disgust of them overnight? Because it's special marysue juliette? NO.
You're very good at insults, Nickster. Let's see if you can be better and provide examples of all of this compassion Nick had.
Quote:Nickster wrote: And how many of us will be willing to kiss something disgusting like a hexenbiest face? Not me. The majority of humans will not kiss a beast like that. Some of us maybe with our weird tastes and freaky attitude.
So love's about kissing women only if they're beautiful, is that what you're saying? He didn't love her at all then, is that what you're saying?
Quote:Nickster wrote: But she had no lips to kiss with anyways. He stayed true to himself but not kissing her in her biest form. Otherwise he would have been a hypocrite. The amount of times he's been disgusted with Adalind's woged face. If Nick had no compassion, he would have left the house and leave her to her own devices. He felt that it was wrong of her to lose her human-ness and be turned into something so disgusting. She wasn't born this way and he wanted to help her restore herself. This is his POV and I don't blame him.
Wait.....he stayed true to himself by not kissing her in her biest form? This was Juliette not Adalind. She stuck with him through some of the darkest times in his life. Sorry, not kissing her when she asked him to sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Quote:Nickster wrote: She was literally a zombie. When someone is infected, you treat them. She was infected. Like it or not, Juliette was infected with Hexenbiest disease and it wasn't doing any good for her.
He's been a zombie too, I don't see where that makes a difference.
Quote:Nickster wrote: Plus he is an idiot for keeping her in his life for his own selfishness and has been a bit stupid and slow at times but he was trying to help her. He's not perfect and it was demonstrated in when dealing with the hexenbiest Juliette. He was acting in character and not suddenly gary stu. She on the other hand, is clearly antagonistic towards him and expects him to betray his own nature just for her sake?
This makes no sense to me whatsoever. At times he was trying to help her, but then he should not betray his own nature for her sake? His own nature is what he should be trying to overcome, not betray. After all, this is the woman he planned on marrying. Or are you now saying she didn't mean anything to him?
Quote:Nickster wrote: Of course he would not want to sleep with a hexenbiest. OMG, you probably would (if they existed in real life) but it's not in his character to willingly sleep with a hexenbiest. Does that mean Nick stopped loving her? No, he still loved her. He cried when she was dying in his arms. If he stopped loving her, he would celebrate her death. He loves the old juliette- the one he fell in love with. Not the crazy new one. Personally I don't get why he would still love a biest like her, after all the crap she's done.
Nick only took the photos down after she left him because seeing them HURT him. It hurt because he felt like a failure. He felt as if he was solely responsible for her becoming a hexenbiest.
You may not know this, Nickster, but people do change. Sometimes they change dramatically and they're not hexenbiests. Sometimes those with them just have to swallow whatever shallow pride they have about the past and face the fact that it's not the same, but maybe it could be better. Nick showed his true colors when Juliette changed. He chose to be cold, cruel and ignore her. Things changed all right, for the worse.
Quote:Nickster wrote: Um. Yes she did. "You all have a hand in this!" & "You made me, get used to it.
Thank you. That's all I ask is for examples.
Quote:Nickster wrote: She threatened him in many ways. She took control of his body to shoot Monroe. She threatened to kill his unborn child MANY times. She again made it clear it's safer for him if she's jailed- HEAVILY implying that she can hurt him.
Well here we are back to generic again. How did she threaten him in 'many' ways? When did she threaten to kill his unborn child many times? And Nickster, implying is not the same thing as acting upon. You know this. Now if you can, provide some examples. And by the way, the shop scene where she took over Nick goes both ways. The men were a threat to Juliette.
Quote:Nickster wrote: So I don't know where you've been- have you been even watching grimm? And taking notes of Juliette's attitude? You sound like a half-informed juliette apologist and it's terrible.
Why don't you get on the stick and participate in the debate instead of wasting valuable bandwith with your jibes and insults. Anyone can insult, you've just proved it. Use that brain for ideas and come back at me with something better than asking me if I watch Grimm. You already know the answer to that
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Hexenadler - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 05:15 AM)irukandji Wrote: So love's about kissing women only if they're beautiful, is that what you're saying? He didn't love her at all then, is that what you're saying?
Gotta go with irukandji on this one, Nickster. That's an awfully depressing thing to imply. (It's also why the Grimm writers deserve to be smacked upside the head for letting Nick and Juliette down. If he had actually kissed her in that moment, "Grimm" would have skyrocketed from no. 10 on my list of favorite current TV shows to no. 1 with a bullet. Juliette would've REALLY looked like a tool if she burned the trailer after that.)
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - jsgrimm45 - 06-11-2015
You know hexenadler you hit the nail on the head the writers wanted something out of this change. I could think of one thing only (may be others) they wanted Nick somewhat less in love with Juliette so they can bounce him back quicker next season. He has two loved ones dead in one day. If the writers bring him out it to soon would cause a problem but if he only say has a one and half you could end the gloom sooner. You pick the %. The kiss wasn't the first clue this wasn't going to end well the first clue was when Juliette first show him and he walk out if he had walkrd her over to the couch and put his arm around her we would have known this was going to work out.
Now I'm not looking to get on anyones side here but will add something that I thinks has been missed facts. Juliette did try to drop a (I think it was) gargoyle on Adalind after she found out she was carrying Nick son.
In the jail talking with Rosalee this appeared to mean something to me, Juliette asks if it would help Monroe would she give up being a fuchsbau she said yes, and did she think Monroe would give up being a blutbad for her she said yes, then Juliette says Nick wouldn't give up being a Grimm for me, but she was the one who told Nick he needed to be a Grimm again and then asked if he wanted it he said yes. The jail scene said to me she did blame him and in passing them also because he need to be a Grimm to help Monroe.
Kenneth granted started the ball rolling but without much effort when he told her Adalind was having Nick baby. We all remember the scene at the police station I thought that was a threat to Adalind and Nick wasn't protecting Adalind he said the baby hadn't caused the problem. The old Juliette might have left Nick but wouldn't have want the child dead.
I think for a time Juliette liked the idea of knowing the wesen world. Rosalee did tell her it wasn't easy for wesen being different (the episode with her friend the fuchsbau). While Juliette was on the outside it was ok but once she became part of that world she didn't like it, when she tossed the book on the Renard's bed she said paraphrasing there nothing in this book to help or you or me and I'm tried of this wesen world and want my old life back. I will say this was the hexenbeist part talking but it was also 50 50 showing Juliette's own feeling as well. At he one dinner she said if it wasn't for Nick being part of this world she wouldn't want to know about it.
Nick asked Kenneth (think Nick at that time wasn't sure Juliette had helped him setup Kelly) and Kenneth said it didn't take but a roll in the hay her needs were not being met. This confirmed it for Nick she had setup Kelly and she did tell Nick she had.
Again I not trying to take a side here for me now the question "would Juliette have killed Nick" is question that can not be answered.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-11-2015
I'm also not pointing fingers but with regard to the incident where Juliette dropped the gargoyle, it should not be forgotten that Adalind drew the line in the sand first. She entered Juliette's house uninvited. Adalind insisted that Juliette come with her and Juliette refused. Adalind initiated the attack on Juliette. I'm not saying Juliette's perfect by any means. But some of her actions can be explained.
Quote:jsgrimm wrote:
Nick asked Kenneth (think Nick at that time wasn't sure Juliette had helped him setup Kelly) and Kenneth said it did take but a roll in the hay her needs were not being met. This confirmed it for Nick she had setup Kelly and she did tell Nick she had.
Can you clarify this? I'm not sure how a roll in the hay confirms Nick knew at that point Juliette set him up.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-11-2015
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote: Funny, it was Juliette who paid the price.
irukandji, if by "paid the price you" you mean suffer... Even Nick and Juliette suffered, so both "paid the price". Is it possible to disccus who suffered more? Yes, but I will not go in this arena.
I don't want to go in the "Who is guilt?" arena either, because for me, both Juliette and Nick made decitions and took actions that pushed each other away. So the "Who is guilt?" arena would be about "who is more guilt?". And the disccussion would have to take Grimm from the first seasson. They were never a real cople... They never really trust each other. When Nick proposed juliette, she answered no because she had the feeling of he hiding something.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote: But while we're on that subject, why didn't she go to Nick first and tell him?As I said above, they never realy trust each other. It is not just about the hexabiest thing. It is before that.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Juliette started asking Henrietta for help to became "normal" again. And she ended up throwing alway a potion that was supposed to help her in this matter, after sayng with all the words to Nick that she liked the power of being a hexanbiest. Juliette changed and became darker and darker episode after episode because of a lot of variables.
A couple of things here. Henrietta told Juliette there was no help for her. The hexenbiest condition was permanent. I may be wrong here, but I got the impression that Henrietta was more powerful than Elizabeth, more powerful than Adalind, she was the top hexenbiest on the hierarchy of hexenbiests.
Now this potion that you speak of, would you have really expected Juliette to take it? Seriously? First of all, she's already been told by a very powerful sorceress that nothing can be done to remove the hexenbiest. There's no reason to believe Henrietta was lying to her.
Second, the potion was concocted by Adalind. Yep, the very same Adalind who got her butt kicked by Juliette and now wants Juliette dead.
Third, Adalind herself 'thought' the potion would work. Rosalie seemed shocked at this, yet passes off the potion anyway. Adalind could have poisoned it. There's nothing she's done to suddenly become a valuable and trusted member of the team.
I totally agree with you on that. My exemple was not to say Juliette should have had drink the potion... Actually, the way they asked Juliette to drink the potion was really dummy. I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Your exemple, the dream, if I am not wrong, Juliette was annoyed with that...
She was not annoyed with the dream, she was frightened by it.
You are right. I choose the wrong word... Again, I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: And as you said, Juliette helped to save monroe. The same Juliette that few episodes latter almost killed Monroe controling Nick's gun (just to point out, in that moment I don't believe Juliette would kill Monroe, she was just playing with them). All of this demonstrates how Juliette changed going in a direction in what in same point she would be capable of killing Nick.
I want to ask you to consider the scene. When Juliette arrives, there are three men at the shop. Two of them (Nick and Hank) are armed with guns. Now why would they need guns? In point of fact, why would they need to be there at all? Then there's Monroe, also present. Again, why?
I don't think Juliette was playing with them at all, I think she was proving a point. She considered them a threat and showed them just how much of a threat she could be. Juliette wasn't going down a dark path of her own free will, her 'so called' friends were forcing her toward that path.
Here I haven't see the scene by this perspective and I have to admit you are right in this one. My post showed Juliette acting delibaratly to be evil... Your post showed Juliette reacting to Nick's and the others actions. In this one you are more correct than me.
But either way, your post shows a progressive agressive relation between Nick and Juliette.
(06-11-2015, 07:07 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: When tallying up Juliette going from a 10 to a 0, Nick had his own tally. I can say with certainty Juliette never got to 0. Nick did.You are right... Nick call Juliette's death first when asked by Trubel what they should do if find Juliette.
Just to explain myself, I don't want to blame Juliette for all evil in the show... and when I say that I believe Juliette would have killed Nick I am not saying Juliette is devil and Nick is angel (as I said above, both are wrong.. so both are devil in this subject). Pardon me if my posts create the impression of Juliette is the only one to be blamed. I ask you to considere my failere to express myself and chosse the right words in a foreing language.
My point is that the choices and the actions of Juliette created in me the impression that she would be capable of killing Nick. And of course I should have wrote that not only Juliette's actions but Nick's also brought them int that situation. Nick's action, Juliette's reaction to Nick's action. Nick's reaction to Juliette's reaction to Nick's action... They never tryed to get closer... in the contrary, both of them always espected the other to give the first step... and the consequence of that was that they pushed each other away.
(06-11-2015, 07:07 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:(06-11-2015, 05:15 AM)irukandji Wrote: So love's about kissing women only if they're beautiful, is that what you're saying? He didn't love her at all then, is that what you're saying?
Gotta go with irukandji on this one, Nickster. That's an awfully depressing thing to imply. (It's also why the Grimm writers deserve to be smacked upside the head for letting Nick and Juliette down. If he had actually kissed her in that moment, "Grimm" would have skyrocketed from no. 10 on my list of favorite current TV shows to no. 1 with a bullet. Juliette would've REALLY looked like a tool if she burned the trailer after that.)
Hexenadler and irukandji... I totally agree with you in that... Actually, I believe the problem is more than the kiss. Nick always showed Juliette that he was there to help her... to change... but he never said: "I am here for you what ever happend... If you decided to come back to normal, I am here to help... If you decided to stay as hexabiest... I will accept you just as you accept me as a grimm."
He was there for the Juliette he wanted to have... not for the real Juliette with what imperfection she had.
jsgrimm45, your post and your description of the facts are so perfect that made me reform my position. Because of that, pelase allow me to copy you to conclude my post:
(06-11-2015, 08:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Again I not trying to take a side here for me now the question "would Juliette have killed Nick" is question that can not be answered.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - jsgrimm45 - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 10:06 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:Thank you(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote: Funny, it was Juliette who paid the price.
irukandji, if by "paid the price you" you mean suffer... Even Nick and Juliette suffered, so both "paid the price". Is it possible to disccus who suffered more? Yes, but I will not go in this arena.
I don't want to go in the "Who is guilt?" arena either, because for me, both Juliette and Nick made decitions and took actions that pushed each other away. So the "Who is guilt?" arena would be about "who is more guilt?". And the disccussion would have to take Grimm from the first seasson. They were never a real cople... They never really trust each other. When Nick proposed juliette, she answered no because she had the feeling of he hiding something.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote: But while we're on that subject, why didn't she go to Nick first and tell him?As I said above, they never realy trust each other. It is not just about the hexabiest thing. It is before that.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Juliette started asking Henrietta for help to became "normal" again. And she ended up throwing alway a potion that was supposed to help her in this matter, after sayng with all the words to Nick that she liked the power of being a hexanbiest. Juliette changed and became darker and darker episode after episode because of a lot of variables.
A couple of things here. Henrietta told Juliette there was no help for her. The hexenbiest condition was permanent. I may be wrong here, but I got the impression that Henrietta was more powerful than Elizabeth, more powerful than Adalind, she was the top hexenbiest on the hierarchy of hexenbiests.
Now this potion that you speak of, would you have really expected Juliette to take it? Seriously? First of all, she's already been told by a very powerful sorceress that nothing can be done to remove the hexenbiest. There's no reason to believe Henrietta was lying to her.
Second, the potion was concocted by Adalind. Yep, the very same Adalind who got her butt kicked by Juliette and now wants Juliette dead.
Third, Adalind herself 'thought' the potion would work. Rosalie seemed shocked at this, yet passes off the potion anyway. Adalind could have poisoned it. There's nothing she's done to suddenly become a valuable and trusted member of the team.
I totally agree with you on that. My exemple was not to say Juliette should have had drink the potion... Actually, the way they asked Juliette to drink the potion was really dummy. I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Your exemple, the dream, if I am not wrong, Juliette was annoyed with that...
She was not annoyed with the dream, she was frightened by it.
You are right. I choose the wrong word... Again, I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
(06-10-2015, 07:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: And as you said, Juliette helped to save monroe. The same Juliette that few episodes latter almost killed Monroe controling Nick's gun (just to point out, in that moment I don't believe Juliette would kill Monroe, she was just playing with them). All of this demonstrates how Juliette changed going in a direction in what in same point she would be capable of killing Nick.
I want to ask you to consider the scene. When Juliette arrives, there are three men at the shop. Two of them (Nick and Hank) are armed with guns. Now why would they need guns? In point of fact, why would they need to be there at all? Then there's Monroe, also present. Again, why?
I don't think Juliette was playing with them at all, I think she was proving a point. She considered them a threat and showed them just how much of a threat she could be. Juliette wasn't going down a dark path of her own free will, her 'so called' friends were forcing her toward that path.
Here I haven't see the scene by this perspective and I have to admit you are right in this one. My post showed Juliette acting delibaratly to be evil... Your post showed Juliette reacting to Nick's and the others actions. In this one you are more correct than me.
But either way, your post shows a progressive agressive relation between Nick and Juliette.
(06-11-2015, 07:07 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: When tallying up Juliette going from a 10 to a 0, Nick had his own tally. I can say with certainty Juliette never got to 0. Nick did.You are right... Nick call Juliette's death first when asked by Trubel what they should do if find Juliette.
Just to explain myself, I don't want to blame Juliette for all evil in the show... and when I say that I believe Juliette would have killed Nick I am not saying Juliette is devil and Nick is angel (as I said above, both are wrong.. so both are devil in this subject). Pardon me if my posts create the impression of Juliette is the only one to be blamed. I ask you to considere my failere to express myself and chosse the right words in a foreing language.
My point is that the choices and the actions of Juliette created in me the impression that she would be capable of killing Nick. And of course I should have wrote that not only Juliette's actions but Nick's also brought them int that situation. Nick's action, Juliette's reaction to Nick's action. Nick's reaction to Juliette's reaction to Nick's action... They never tryed to get closer... in the contrary, both of them always espected the other to give the first step... and the consequence of that was that they pushed each other away.
(06-11-2015, 07:07 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:(06-11-2015, 05:15 AM)irukandji Wrote: So love's about kissing women only if they're beautiful, is that what you're saying? He didn't love her at all then, is that what you're saying?
Gotta go with irukandji on this one, Nickster. That's an awfully depressing thing to imply. (It's also why the Grimm writers deserve to be smacked upside the head for letting Nick and Juliette down. If he had actually kissed her in that moment, "Grimm" would have skyrocketed from no. 10 on my list of favorite current TV shows to no. 1 with a bullet. Juliette would've REALLY looked like a tool if she burned the trailer after that.)
Hexenadler and irukandji... I totally agree with you in that... Actually, I believe the problem is more than the kiss. Nick always showed Juliette that he was there to help her... to change... but he never said: "I am here for you what ever happend... If you decided to come back to normal, I am here to help... If you decided to stay as hexabiest... I will accept you just as you accept me as a grimm."
He was there for the Juliette he wanted to have... not for the real Juliette with what imperfection she had.
jsgrimm45, your post and your description of the facts are so perfect that made me reform my position. Because of that, pelase allow me to copy you to conclude my post:
(06-11-2015, 08:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Again I not trying to take a side here for me now the question "would Juliette have killed Nick" is question that can not be answered.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-11-2015
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:: irukandji, if by "paid the price you" you mean suffer... Even Nick and Juliette suffered, so both "paid the price". Is it possible to disccus who suffered more? Yes, but I will not go in this arena.
No, Adriano, I was speaking of her death. She ended up paying the price by dying.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
I don't want to go in the "Who is guilt?" arena either, because for me, both Juliette and Nick made decitions and took actions that pushed each other away. So the "Who is guilt?" arena would be about "who is more guilt?". And the disccussion would have to take Grimm from the first seasson. They were never a real cople... They never really trust each other. When Nick proposed juliette, she answered no because she had the feeling of he hiding something.
Who’s the more guilty wouldn’t really be a question I would want to pursue, because to me, the word, ‘guilt’ has to do with breaking the law. Everyone pretty much breaks the law at will on Grimm, lol. I prefer to discuss specific instances, like the above question. I like to take the characters’ actions and try to answer the question. There is no answer to the question, it’s true. Isn’t it fun trying to guess what the character would do though?
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
I totally agree with you on that. My exemple was not to say Juliette should have had drink the potion... Actually, the way they asked Juliette to drink the potion was really dummy. I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
It was dumb, wasn’t it? In my opinion, that whole potion scene should have never even been shown. By the time a potion was developed, Juliette was well on her way to embracing her hexenbiest. (I say this loosely because I don’t believe she was 75% hexenbiest or 50% a hexenbiest, anything like that). I just believe she was doing like Henrietta said. She was learning to live with it.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
You are right. I choose the wrong word... Again, I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
I agree with that. There was a change in her actions.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
Here I haven't see the scene by this perspective and I have to admit you are right in this one. My post showed Juliette acting delibaratly to be evil... Your post showed Juliette reacting to Nick's and the others actions. In this one you are more correct than me.
Thank you. I don’t expect anyone to agree with what I post. Just putting it out there for thought.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:: irukandji, if by "paid the price you" you mean suffer... Even Nick and Juliette suffered, so both "paid the price". Is it possible to disccus who suffered more? Yes, but I will not go in this arena.
No, Adriano, I was speaking of her death. She ended up paying the price by dying.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
I don't want to go in the "Who is guilt?" arena either, because for me, both Juliette and Nick made decitions and took actions that pushed each other away. So the "Who is guilt?" arena would be about "who is more guilt?". And the disccussion would have to take Grimm from the first seasson. They were never a real cople... They never really trust each other. When Nick proposed juliette, she answered no because she had the feeling of he hiding something.
Who’s the more guilty wouldn’t really be a question I would want to pursue, because to me, the word, ‘guilt’ has to do with breaking the law. Everyone pretty much breaks the law at will on Grimm, lol. I prefer to discuss specific instances, like the above question. I like to take the characters’ actions and try to answer the question. There is no answer to the question, it’s true. Isn’t it fun trying to guess what the character would do though?
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
I totally agree with you on that. My exemple was not to say Juliette should have had drink the potion... Actually, the way they asked Juliette to drink the potion was really dummy. I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
It was dumb, wasn’t it? In my opinion, that whole potion scene should have never even been shown. By the time a potion was developed, Juliette was well on her way to embracing her hexenbiest. (I say this loosely because I don’t believe she was 75% hexenbiest or 50% a hexenbiest, anything like that). I just believe she was doing like Henrietta said. She was learning to live with it.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
You are right. I choose the wrong word... Again, I just wanted to show a change in Juliette's actions.
I agree with that. There was a change in her actions.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
Here I haven't see the scene by this perspective and I have to admit you are right in this one. My post showed Juliette acting delibaratly to be evil... Your post showed Juliette reacting to Nick's and the others actions. In this one you are more correct than me.
Thank you. I don’t expect anyone to agree with what I post. Just putting it out there for thought.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-12-2015
(06-11-2015, 11:22 AM)irukandji Wrote:Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:: irukandji, if by "paid the price you" you mean suffer... Even Nick and Juliette suffered, so both "paid the price". Is it possible to disccus who suffered more? Yes, but I will not go in this arena.
No, Adriano, I was speaking of her death. She ended up paying the price by dying.
irukandji, I was thinking about paying the price and I start to saw things in another direction. I would like to read your thoughs, and of course from others member of the forum, about this.
First, the idea is not talk about life after death, just to let it clear. I will just considere life before death. Ok?
And I my intention is not simply give na oposite opinion from yours. My intention is to look in a diferent way.
The idea...
Supose Juliette stayed alive for the next seasson. After Kenneth and kings Frederich death... and after Kelly's death and everything that happended between she and the group... she would be alone... If everybody belives Diana died in the helicopter (we don't know yet how this plot will be played) and if Sean considered Juliette part of his father death... maybe... even Sean would abandon her. If Juliette kills Nick in the house this would be even worst.
Obs.: I am not saying Juliette is responsable for those things. But by the things that happened in the show, we can be sure that this is the perception of the group and that is how they woulod play in seasson five.
Continuing... Juliette is a dot of interrogation. Aparently she has no feelings anymore (I have defended it here). But after your arguments, deep inside, I don't believe it anymore. With this new perception, I am not sure if she would be sad about all of that, but I believe she would suffer. Suffer for been alone... suffer for carring the burden of the responsabilit for all that happended (again, the point here is not if she is or not responsible... but the caracteres perceptions... and the show writers played all the cards against Juliette).
Considering all of that (and other things you may considerer)... Can't we see Juliette's death more as gift than a price for her? Some kind of freedon from all of that burden?
In the other way... Now Nick is the one to stay relativelly alone...Feeling guilt for Juliette's and Kelly's death? (if he followed Marie advise in the first seasson, everithing would be diferent...). Ins't Nick the one paing the price for staying alive after all?
obs.: The idea is to see the situation up side down and try to see new perspectives. As the writers promised a darker grimm, I belive they play this burden card over Nick's shoulder exactly to make him dark. Just speculating.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-12-2015
(06-12-2015, 07:27 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: irukandji, I was thinking about paying the price and I start to saw things in another direction. I would like to read your thoughs, and of course from others member of the forum, about this.
First, the idea is not talk about life after death, just to let it clear. I will just considere life before death. Ok?
And I my intention is not simply give na oposite opinion from yours. My intention is to look in a diferent way.
The idea...
Supose Juliette stayed alive for the next seasson. After Kenneth and kings Frederich death... and after Kelly's death and everything that happended between she and the group... she would be alone... If everybody belives Diana died in the helicopter (we don't know yet how this plot will be played) and if Sean considered Juliette part of his father death... maybe... even Sean would abandon her. If Juliette kills Nick in the house this would be even worst.
Obs.: I am not saying Juliette is responsable for those things. But by the things that happened in the show, we can be sure that this is the perception of the group and that is how they woulod play in seasson five.
Continuing... Juliette is a dot of interrogation. Aparently she has no feelings anymore (I have defended it here). But after your arguments, deep inside, I don't believe it anymore. With this new perception, I am not sure if she would be sad about all of that, but I believe she would suffer. Suffer for been alone... suffer for carring the burden of the responsabilit for all that happended (again, the point here is not if she is or not responsible... but the caracteres perceptions... and the show writers played all the cards against Juliette).
Considering all of that (and other things you may considerer)... Can't we see Juliette's death more as gift than a price for her? Some kind of freedon from all of that burden?
In the other way... Now Nick is the one to stay relativelly alone...Feeling guilt for Juliette's and Kelly's death? (if he followed Marie advise in the first seasson, everithing would be diferent...). Ins't Nick the one paing the price for staying alive after all?
obs.: The idea is to see the situation up side down and try to see new perspectives. As the writers promised a darker grimm, I belive they play this burden card over Nick's shoulder exactly to make him dark. Just speculating.
First of all, I want to say, that was a dumb remark I made about Juliette paying the price. What I was thinking was that it was Nick who set the price by telling the Scooby gang, "Kill her". Juliette got killed and so she paid the price he set. But what did that have to do with this topic? Not a thing.
Adriano, I think what you're saying here is that death set Juliette free. If she had lived, she would have been even more miserable because no one, possibly not even Sean, would have anything to do with her. Also, she really had lost most of her humanity and was not capable of feeling. Am I correct? If I'm not let me know. But if I am, here are some thoughts I have.
I have been wondering for a while now why Juliette went back to the house. She had her escape well in hand and I have no doubt the royals would have treated her well. So why then did she go back?
You mentioned that if Juliette lived in Season 5 that you believe no one would have anything to do with her. But doesn't that prove she's still human then? That she's hanging around in the hope that she'll get that life back that she lost? Maybe that's the reason why she went back to the house. Even if Nick killed her, she's alive for that moment, back in her house.
If she were the unfeeling hexenbiest she would have left with the royals. She would be a very valuable asset to them. First, she's a rare and unusual hexenbiest. The royals would definitely look upon her as special and more than likely would make it a priority to find a hexenbiest who could help her deal with her new found powers. Once she became proficient in her powers, she could be the ultimate weapon for them. Second, she has something no one else has; exclusive knowledge of Nick. She was his partner, his friend, his confidante, and his lover for many years. What if her knowledge yielded a weakness that could be used against him? Third, she could become very rich, and live whatever lifestyle she wanted. Juliette the complete and total hexenbiest would have taken that deal. Juliette the human did not. She instead returned home.
What I'm trying to say here is that I can't see her death as a gift because I don't believe now that she wanted to die. I think she wanted to live and live among the people she knew so well. Her death doesn't give me any relief and leaves me feeling cheated.
Sorry this doesn't have a lot to do with the topic. I was just trying to come back with some thoughts on your post.