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+---- Thread: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? (/Thread-Would-Juliette-really-have-killed-Nick)
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 09:55 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Try to put yourself in his place: After his mother was killed by a trap setup by his girlfriend, she just showed up and say kill me??? If he had killed her, he would suffer feeling guilt by her death... If he let she goes, he would suffer feeling guilt by everything. Actually, this is what I believe Juliette wanted: to make all of her friends fell guilt by her condition. She was being evil, could, heartless (does this word exists in english???)
It also could be argued that Juliette did not ask for any of this. Nick did. He was warned to stay out of her way. He didn't. As for Kelly's death, we need to keep in mind that Nick has absolutely no proof Juliette set it up. All he recalls is the computer mouse has been moved. As a detective, he cannot lay blame until he knows for sure she was involved.
One final thing..... where is all this compassion that these wesen and Nick are supposed to have? Instead of helping Juliette, and I mean really helping her, they plot behind her back. It really is a small wonder she didn't kill Nick. But I still think if she wanted him dead, he'd have been gone long before that night.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - jsgrimm45 - 06-10-2015
(06-09-2015, 01:29 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:Of the posts here yours made me think why like you said didn't she kill him from the get go. I think he got to the house first even with him stopping at Bud's he had a car she would had (as we don't know how she got there) find keys etc. He was there when she got to the house from the timing maybe only a few seconds to a maybe 2 or 3 minutes.(06-08-2015, 07:23 PM)crossbar Wrote: I think Juliette would have killed him. She had been embracing her hexenbeist side more than her human. And her connection to Nick was the only thread of humanity she had left. So, she wanted and needed to cut that last thread and she would be able to embrace her hexenbeist side completely.
I don't buy that. Juliette would have simply killed Nick outright the moment he walked through the front door. If anything, she seemed to be acting out of self-loathing. She lacked the courage to off herself, so she hoped Nick would do the job for her.
She knew Nick she knew no matter what had happen he was still in love with her. See (we have to think hexenbeist) would have not let Nick kill her she was just rubbing salt into the wound.
Nick knows her problem is because of him wanting to be a Grimm again. She knew he would not follow up on killing her. When he started to choke her, she knew this was hurting him more than her. She wanted to hurt him before she killed him. She had started it with Kelly's death (didn't believe for a split second she didn't know Kelly would not die she knew Kelly's history with the royals). That (to hurt Nick) was a reason she didn't leave with the King. They are others.
Trubel showing up was not planned where else would she go. She had taken the crossbow for Chavez but seen Juliette go in the house. She waited for a time hoping Juliette would at least ask for help, but absent that she wasn't going to let Nick die. Juliette death at her hands hurt Trubel so in a way Juliette hurt everyone connected with Nick. If she had known Trubel was back she'd have planned to kill her also.
Does any of this track with you or give you another idea?
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 10:32 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: She knew Nick she knew no matter what had happen he was still in love with her. See (we have to think hexenbeist) would have not let Nick kill her she was just rubbing salt into the wound.
When she woged in front of Nick for the first time, he looked like he was about to puke at the sight of her. Not only that, he refused to sleep with her or be near her. Not too long afterwards, he removed all of the pictures of her. Juliette's not stupid. Nick made it plain he no longer loved her.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 10:11 AM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 09:55 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Try to put yourself in his place: After his mother was killed by a trap setup by his girlfriend, she just showed up and say kill me??? If he had killed her, he would suffer feeling guilt by her death... If he let she goes, he would suffer feeling guilt by everything. Actually, this is what I believe Juliette wanted: to make all of her friends fell guilt by her condition. She was being evil, could, heartless (does this word exists in english???)
It also could be argued that Juliette did not ask for any of this. Nick did. He was warned to stay out of her way. He didn't. As for Kelly's death, we need to keep in mind that Nick has absolutely no proof Juliette set it up. All he recalls is the computer mouse has been moved. As a detective, he cannot lay blame until he knows for sure she was involved.
One final thing..... where is all this compassion that these wesen and Nick are supposed to have? Instead of helping Juliette, and I mean really helping her, they plot behind her back. It really is a small wonder she didn't kill Nick. But I still think if she wanted him dead, he'd have been gone long before that night.
I agree with all of your arguments. I am not saying she is guilt, or the only one guilt. Everyone has its part in the hole plot. But the question is not who should be blamed for what happend, but if Juliette would or would not kill Nick. She believed Nick and the others are the responsables for what hapenned to her and for that she wanted then to suffer. So, your argument just reinforce my belive that she would have killed Nick. And about Kelly, Juliette told Nick that she didn't know they would have killed her. In this moment, Nick could be sure that Juliette really set her up.
But back in the point of the question. Again, I agree with you that Juliette didn't ask for any of that. But the way I see it, it is not about who is guilt (in a context, of course Nick is more guilt then Juliette). It is about what Juliette would have done. For her, Nick was guilt for her suffering... so Nick was suposed to suffer too. And die, in the end. That is this way becuase Juliette became a cold person in the process. I don't blame her for that. But that is the way things happened.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 11:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: But the question is not who should be blamed for what happend, but if Juliette would or would not kill Nick. She believed Nick and the others are the responsables for what hapenned to her and for that she wanted then to suffer.
This sounds like your perception. Juliette never blamed Nick or anyone else for that matter for what happened to her. That being the case, there is no motive for wanting to kill Nick, right?
(06-10-2015, 11:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: But the way I see it, it is not about who is guilt (in a context, of course Nick is more guilt then Juliette). It is about what Juliette would have done. For her, Nick was guilt for her suffering... so Nick was suposed to suffer too. And die, in the end. That is this way becuase Juliette became a cold person in the process. I don't blame her for that. But that is the way things happened.
I need to ask here, what are you basing your argument on? Juliette never said Nick was guilty for her suffering, nor did she threaten him in any way.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 11:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:(06-10-2015, 11:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: But the question is not who should be blamed for what happend, but if Juliette would or would not kill Nick. She believed Nick and the others are the responsables for what hapenned to her and for that she wanted then to suffer.
This sounds like your perception. Juliette never blamed Nick or anyone else for that matter for what happened to her. That being the case, there is no motive for wanting to kill Nick, right?
(06-10-2015, 11:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: But the way I see it, it is not about who is guilt (in a context, of course Nick is more guilt then Juliette). It is about what Juliette would have done. For her, Nick was guilt for her suffering... so Nick was suposed to suffer too. And die, in the end. That is this way becuase Juliette became a cold person in the process. I don't blame her for that. But that is the way things happened.
I need to ask here, what are you basing your argument on? Juliette never said Nick was guilty for her suffering, nor did she threaten him in any way.
Actually I remember a talk in one of the episodes where she does blame Nick and his friends for the hexabiest tranformation. I can't remember exactly the conversation... If Juliette herself said she blame them... or if Nick, Monroe and the others were talking and say samething like: she blame us all... But I remember samething like that.
Maybe, my memories are betraying me because since the begging I keep this impression... that she blame then for her condition and when she embraced it they didn't accepted her.
Maybe this is just my impression... but the way the writers did the story, I only see Juliette looking for revenge... and trying to hurt Nick in every single action.
Probably the writres wrote things in dubious way on porpuse. For exemple... There is a scene before Juliette answer Kelly's call that Juliette remember things that happend between Nick, Kelly and Juliette. My first impression was that her humanity was trying to fight the hexabiest. But one of the memories was when Kelly arraived with Adelaind and the child. My impression since that memorie was that Juliette considered Kelly one of the responsibles for the hexanbiest thing, because after that Kelly runned away with Adelaind daugther and because of that Adelaind wanted revange and took Nicks power out. Juliette did the reversion process and became a hexabiest. So, everything started when Kelly decided to take Adelaind to Nick's house. Actually, in the memories moment in the show, it was not clear what interpretation was correct (Juliette humanity or Juliette blaming Kelly?). The writers left it open for both interpretations.
Obs.: Please, forgive-me for my bad english... I am not a native english speaker and sametimes find a little hard to write correctly.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 12:37 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Actually I remember a talk in one of the episodes where she does blame Nick and his friends for the hexabiest tranformation. I can't remember exactly the conversation... If Juliette herself said she blame them... or if Nick, Monroe and the others were talking and say samething like: she blame us all... But I remember samething like that.
Maybe, my memories are betraying me because since the begging I keep this impression... that she blame then for her condition and when she embraced it they didn't accepted her.
Maybe this is just my impression... but the way the writers did the story, I only see Juliette looking for revenge... and trying to hurt Nick in every single action.
Probably the writres wrote things in dubious way on porpuse. For exemple... There is a scene before Juliette answer Kelly's call that Juliette remember things that happend between Nick, Kelly and Juliette. My first impression was that her humanity was trying to fight the hexabiest. But one of the memories was when Kelly arraived with Adelaind and the child. My impression since that memorie was that Juliette considered Kelly one of the responsibles for the hexanbiest thing, because after that Kelly runned away with Adelaind daugther and because of that Adelaind wanted revange and took Nicks power out. Juliette did the reversion process and became a hexabiest. So, everything started when Kelly decided to take Adelaind to Nick's house. Actually, in the memories moment in the show, it was not clear what interpretation was correct (Juliette humanity or Juliette blaming Kelly?). The writers left it open for both interpretations.
Obs.: Please, forgive-me for my bad english... I am not a native english speaker and sametimes find a little hard to write correctly.
Adriano, your English is just fine. I don't recall Juliette ever blaming anyone for what happened, but even if she did, how does blame suddenly become the intention to murder Nick? Using what I've seen in the episodes, it doesn't.
Nickster mentioned something earlier in the thread that caught my attention:
Quote:It doesn't matter. What matters is she attacked Nick, broke a window with his head, biest slapped him and acted as if he was in the wrong despite all the crap she's done.
And the dude wasn't even hitting her back.
I assume Nickster was pointing out that Juliette was trying to kill Nick by throwing him at the window and slapping him around. I don't get that impression and here's the reason why.
Not long after Juliette becomes a hexenbiest, she has a dream. She dreams her and Rosalie woge, and she rips Rosalie's throat out. Not so very long after that, when Monroe is kidnapped and about to be killed, Juliette goes with Nick and the gang to save him. She actually kills a wesen. How? By ripping his throat out. You're right, I think she was out to hurt Nick, but that is not the same as killing him.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Hexenadler - 06-10-2015
I'm starting to get the impression that 98% of the fans in this forum are convinced Juliette was/is completely irredeemable, Hexenbiest or not. All this pessimism is getting awfully oppressive.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 01:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: Adriano, your English is just fine. I don't recall Juliette ever blaming anyone for what happened, but even if she did, how does blame suddenly become the intention to murder Nick? Using what I've seen in the episodes, it doesn't.
Not long after Juliette becomes a hexenbiest, she has a dream. She dreams her and Rosalie woge, and she rips Rosalie's throat out. Not so very long after that, when Monroe is kidnapped and about to be killed, Juliette goes with Nick and the gang to save him. She actually kills a wesen. How? By ripping his throat out. You're right, I think she was out to hurt Nick, but that is not the same as killing him.
irukandji, thanks for the complements about my english.
One thing we agree: Juliette was out to hurt Nick. And my aguments are based on that perception. I am not talking just about the blaming feeling. It is all the context and the sequence of events.
Juliette started asking Henrietta for help to became "normal" again. And she ended up throwing alway a potion that was supposed to help her in this matter, after sayng with all the words to Nick that she liked the power of being a hexanbiest. Juliette changed and became darker and darker episode after episode because of a lot of variables.
Your exemple, the dream, if I am not wrong, Juliette was annoyed with that... And as you said, Juliette helped to save monroe. The same Juliette that few episodes latter almost killed Monroe controling Nick's gun (just to point out, in that moment I don't believe Juliette would kill Monroe, she was just playing with them). All of this demonstrates how Juliette changed going in a direction in what in same point she would be capable of killing Nick.
All her actions in the since she became hexabiest was to hurt Nick and was in progressive way to the darkness (fire in the trailer, force Nick to point a gun to Monroe, sending a mail to Kelly, sleeping with Kennethy in Nick and Juliette bed...). In my impression, showing up at the house was the last stage the hardning sequence of punchs she gave to hurt Nick. Maybe you are right... she would not kill him in that moment... but certanly she would make him suffer as much as she can.
I will try to explain better my point using same kind of imaginary rule going from 10 to 0 where 10 means Juliette loves Nick and her friends and would never be able to hurt or kill them... and 0 menas Juliette simple doesn't care for them and would be able to kill anyone that keeps in her way.
Juliette was in point 10 before she became an hexanbiest. She was point 9 when she helped save Monroe. I see she in point 8 or 7 when she fired the trailler (stil in love with Nick, but very angry with him). She must be between 6 and 4 to send Kelly that message that ended up killing her. At least number 4 or 3 when Kelly died and she did nothinig to turn around from that path.
Was Juliette at number 0 when she meet Nick at home (would she kill him?) Or not yet? I don't know for sure.
Maybe the numbers are not all correct, but in my point of view Juliette was going to number 0 and the sequence of actions (darker and darker episode after episode) shows that.
Supose Trubel did not kill Juliette: maybe she would just hurt Nick hard but not kill him... But I belive that in seasson five, they would have another clousure when Juliette would be in the feeling of killing Nick.
RE: Would Juliette really have killed Nick? - irukandji - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: irukandji, thanks for the complements about my english.
You are welcome!
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: One thing we agree: Juliette was out to hurt Nick. And my aguments are based on that perception. I am not talking just about the blaming feeling. It is all the context and the sequence of events.
Well, I need to elaborate a bit on this, Adriano. When I said Juliette was out to hurt Nick, I meant the night she died. I never saw her go out of her way to hurt him prior to that.
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Juliette started asking Henrietta for help to became "normal" again. And she ended up throwing alway a potion that was supposed to help her in this matter, after sayng with all the words to Nick that she liked the power of being a hexanbiest. Juliette changed and became darker and darker episode after episode because of a lot of variables.
A couple of things here. Henrietta told Juliette there was no help for her. The hexenbiest condition was permanent. I may be wrong here, but I got the impression that Henrietta was more powerful than Elizabeth, more powerful than Adalind, she was the top hexenbiest on the hierarchy of hexenbiests.
Now this potion that you speak of, would you have really expected Juliette to take it? Seriously? First of all, she's already been told by a very powerful sorceress that nothing can be done to remove the hexenbiest. There's no reason to believe Henrietta was lying to her.
Second, the potion was concocted by Adalind. Yep, the very same Adalind who got her butt kicked by Juliette and now wants Juliette dead.
Third, Adalind herself 'thought' the potion would work. Rosalie seemed shocked at this, yet passes off the potion anyway. Adalind could have poisoned it. There's nothing she's done to suddenly become a valuable and trusted member of the team.
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: Your exemple, the dream, if I am not wrong, Juliette was annoyed with that...
She was not annoyed with the dream, she was frightened by it.
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: And as you said, Juliette helped to save monroe. The same Juliette that few episodes latter almost killed Monroe controling Nick's gun (just to point out, in that moment I don't believe Juliette would kill Monroe, she was just playing with them). All of this demonstrates how Juliette changed going in a direction in what in same point she would be capable of killing Nick.
I want to ask you to consider the scene. When Juliette arrives, there are three men at the shop. Two of them (Nick and Hank) are armed with guns. Now why would they need guns? In point of fact, why would they need to be there at all? Then there's Monroe, also present. Again, why?
I don't think Juliette was playing with them at all, I think she was proving a point. She considered them a threat and showed them just how much of a threat she could be. Juliette wasn't going down a dark path of her own free will, her 'so called' friends were forcing her toward that path.
(06-10-2015, 04:28 PM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1433978933' Wrote: All her actions in the since she became hexabiest was to hurt Nick and was in progressive way to the darkness (fire in the trailer, force Nick to point a gun to Monroe, sending a mail to Kelly, sleeping with Kennethy in Nick and Juliette bed...). In my impression, showing up at the house was the last stage the hardning sequence of punchs she gave to hurt Nick. Maybe you are right... she would not kill him in that moment... but certanly she would make him suffer as much as she can.
Juliette was a hexenbiest for a while before she ever told Nick, so her sole objective could not have been to hurt him. But while we're on that subject, why didn't she go to Nick first and tell him? According to the consensus here, Nick was behind her 100%. Kind, wonderful Nick. Couldn't he give her guidance and help her? So why did she go to Sean?
Maybe because she already knew the answer, deep down. The minute she told Nick, things between them ended. He made sure of that. Oh sure, he said he'd help her, "they'd" get through this. But how could she believe he'd do anything after the way he looked at her. That, by the way was the absolute cruelest, coldest, meanest thing I have seen in a long time (as a side note, kudos to David. Top notch acting there).
So let's go over all of the things Nick did to help. He managed to be away from home more and more so he didn't have to be around her. He wouldn't sleep with her. He removed all the personal reminders of her, (the pictures).
Henrietta told Nick to let Juliette be a hexenbiest, stay out of her way. She also reminded him that Juliette learned to live with him as a Grimm, he would have to learn to live with her as a hexenbiest. Instead of listening, he ignored Henrietta. You want to talk about blame. Nick blamed Juliette for becoming a hexenbiest. I don't know, maybe as a Grimm he couldn't help himself. He also couldn't forgive her. When tallying up Juliette going from a 10 to a 0, Nick had his own tally. I can say with certainty Juliette never got to 0. Nick did.
Funny, it was Juliette who paid the price.