(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: Or the great specialists we have today.....like heart transplant doctors. Can you imagine how a person of the middle ages would view a human would could transplant a human heart? Could you imagine what these people would think of the Hubble telescope and the wonders seen through it?

(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: Do you ever wonder if the women were simply praying over the sick? Worshipping a spiritual power higher than we are is a commonality between nations and has been since the dawn of mankind.

(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: *This* is the thing I really liked about Grimm, the fact that instead of toodling something off as magic or witchcraft, they actually tried to explain the process. Wesen weren't magical creatures, they were extraordinarily talented humans. Hexenbiests patronized Rosalee's store for their ingredients. Grimm even ventured into wesen drug addiction and herbs that were poisonous to wesen. Nick had no
special powers in order to see wesen; his eyes were just different.

Now, they seem to be going in an entirely different direction. This raising of the dead thing for one. If it doesn't happen with Juliette, it'll happen with Monroe or even Nick himself. That is a series killer.

(10-20-2015, 06:04 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:

(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: Or the great specialists we have today.....like heart transplant doctors. Can you imagine how a person of the middle ages would view a human would could transplant a human heart? Could you imagine what these people would think of the Hubble telescope and the wonders seen through it?

You got the idea. A middle age person would consider all of this magic, angel, devil... or whatever supernatural power they would imagine.

(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: Do you ever wonder if the women were simply praying over the sick? Worshipping a spiritual power higher than we are is a commonality between nations and has been since the dawn of mankind.

I have just a guess. Many fairly tales describe witch cauldron as the main tool of a witch. I imagine in that time witch used to make potions. Maybe the herbs in the potions were the real reason for the cures. But I imagine the witch used to pray over the potions asking for some supernatural powers to "bless" the potions. Maybe this is the reason for many believe the witch were using evil powers. Not so far, here in Brazil now a days there are stil many "witchs" that prepare potions with herbs.... but they also pray for some supernatural power.

(10-20-2015, 04:24 PM)irukandji Wrote: *This* is the thing I really liked about Grimm, the fact that instead of toodling something off as magic or witchcraft, they actually tried to explain the process. Wesen weren't magical creatures, they were extraordinarily talented humans. Hexenbiests patronized Rosalee's store for their ingredients. Grimm even ventured into wesen drug addiction and herbs that were poisonous to wesen. Nick had no
special powers in order to see wesen; his eyes were just different.

Now, they seem to be going in an entirely different direction. This raising of the dead thing for one. If it doesn't happen with Juliette, it'll happen with Monroe or even Nick himself. That is a series killer.

The raising from the dead... I think that with Sean Renard the writers got close to the limit... They almost cross it. The way I see Sean was almost dead... like a man that the heart had stoped but the brain is still working (the doctors can try to make the heart works again...)...

But I think that if the writters do it again... They will cross the limit... And them everything will be possible in the show since magic with out a price will be free to use.

Just to add a new element. I also like to see Once Upon a Time. The quote I like most is: all magic cames with a price. I like this sentence because it adds a limit for the things done by magic. The characters can do almost everything they want ... like bring a dead one to live again... But the price for this kind of magic is very expencive... this way the writters of once upon a time can limit the use of this kind of things in the show...

If grimm writers start to bring dead to live with magic and this magic has no consequencies... Well ... my opinion... Grimm will became very boring because... everything done in the past will be undone in the future.

(10-20-2015, 06:52 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I always thought in the real world Elizabeth Lascellmas was donating blood to Sean through transfusion (the two headed snake) and that's what brought his heart pumping again. He wasn't dead long enough for there to be cell death, decomposition. His heart just stopped is all and you can bring someone back from that. Elizabeth fainted from the drop in her own blood pressure after that massive blood transfer and the doctors were there to bring her back around.

(10-20-2015, 08:20 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-20-2015, 06:52 PM)Lin S. Wrote: I always thought in the real world Elizabeth Lascellmas was donating blood to Sean through transfusion (the two headed snake) and that's what brought his heart pumping again. He wasn't dead long enough for there to be cell death, decomposition. His heart just stopped is all and you can bring someone back from that. Elizabeth fainted from the drop in her own blood pressure after that massive blood transfer and the doctors were there to bring her back around.

According to the dialogue on the episode the hospital staff tried defibrillating him and that didn't work. They quoted time of death at 1:34. So he was dead with no chance of bringing him back.

Quote:
The decision to discontinue resuscitation was taken after 25 minutes of timed resuscitation when the patient was still asystolic and pulseless with no respiratory effort. The time of death was noted verbally.
The team leader was then called to see another patient and about a minute later the A&E sister noted a rhythm on the monitor and a palpable radial pulse. The first systolic blood pressure recorded was 140. Assisted ventilation was restarted and the patient was transferred to the intentsive care unit.

(10-21-2015, 04:07 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Just to explain myself here. I am not justifying the writers or saying I am sure Sean wasn't dead. I am saying that the writers got to the limit of explaining this happening with no use of magic. That is why we have opinions that Sean was dead, like yours. But we still can try to explain that Sean resurrection was something like Lazarus syndrome. He still had a chance because Elizabeth acted in the final last second.

My point is that if the writers stop on Sean, ok... It is a subject for some debates... If the writers resurrect another character apparently using magic again, this line will be crossed and everything will possible.

(10-21-2015, 05:26 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 04:07 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Just to explain myself here. I am not justifying the writers or saying I am sure Sean wasn't dead. I am saying that the writers got to the limit of explaining this happening with no use of magic. That is why we have opinions that Sean was dead, like yours. But we still can try to explain that Sean resurrection was something like Lazarus syndrome. He still had a chance because Elizabeth acted in the final last second.

My point is that if the writers stop on Sean, ok... It is a subject for some debates... If the writers resurrect another character apparently using magic again, this line will be crossed and everything will possible.

This is merely my opinion, which I'll start with by asking questions.

What was the point of the scene with Elizabeth? Was it to show that Sean actually came back to life because of Lazarus syndrome? Or was it to show that she used magic to bring him back to life?

Elizabeth didn't use standard transfusion techniques. In fact, she didn't use close to standard techniques. She used a two headed snake. Two headed snakes are considered good omens in some countries. However, two headed or not, they are still an animal. One head cannot bite the donor, the other the patient, and automatic transfusion is obtained.

What was it that Elizabeths transfused into Sean? Was it blood? I'm asking because I never saw if it was blood or not. If we're talking quantities here, the snake itself couldn't have held one or two pints.
If it was blood. What if it wasn't but some portion of her life force, maybe her hexenbiest spirit?

After the transfusion is complete, the snake disappears and Elizabeth faints. Sean is saved. So back to my original questions. What was the point of the scene with Elizabeth? Was it to show that Sean actually came back to life because of Lazarus syndrome? Or was it to show that she used magic to bring him back to life?

I think it was to show she used magic to bring him back to life.

(10-21-2015, 06:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good back points but you know there will be a but. For the B5 fans the seen something close to this, for those not on B5 the was a device that took like force from one and gave it to another for healing.

I believe Elizabeth snake was this type potion. I took the live force from her and gave it to Sean bring him back from the dead but it did have to use very quickly after death. We know it didn't cure him he was still wounded like B5. What I found most interesting was her eyes flash blue and even thing stopped power we never seen in any other hexen, so for a hexen what is her power level?

Adalind when they are trying to get Jack to leave says Sean must have died. They had to make Jack think Sean died again for him the leave.

Sean says to his Mother that is the second time you gave me life.

She says she could only do that once likely the second time would kill her and Sean would still be dead. I think the writers used the snake for the symbol of the medical caduceus 2 snakes.

As always just my 2 cents.

(10-21-2015, 07:08 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 06:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good back points but you know there will be a but. For the B5 fans the seen something close to this, for those not on B5 the was a device that took like force from one and gave it to another for healing.

I believe Elizabeth snake was this type potion. I took the live force from her and gave it to Sean bring him back from the dead but it did have to use very quickly after death. We know it didn't cure him he was still wounded like B5. What I found most interesting was her eyes flash blue and even thing stopped power we never seen in any other hexen, so for a hexen what is her power level?

Adalind when they are trying to get Jack to leave says Sean must have died. They had to make Jack think Sean died again for him the leave.

Sean says to his Mother that is the second time you gave me life.

She says she could only do that once likely the second time would kill her and Sean would still be dead. I think the writers used the snake for the symbol of the medical caduceus 2 snakes.

As always just my 2 cents.

And here's the other but to this. If Sean came back to life as the result of Lazarus syndrome, it could just as easily be argued that it was the doctors and medical staff who brought the syndrome on rather than Elizabeth.

Also, the caduceus is the incorrect symbol for medicine. It is actually the Rod of Asclepius which is the symbol of healing. Leave it to the US to get this completely mixed up. The caduceus is a symbol of alchemy so the two headed snake may have been appropriate in Elizabeth's case.

(10-21-2015, 08:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 07:08 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 06:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good back points but you know there will be a but. For the B5 fans the seen something close to this, for those not on B5 the was a device that took like force from one and gave it to another for healing.

I believe Elizabeth snake was this type potion. I took the live force from her and gave it to Sean bring him back from the dead but it did have to use very quickly after death. We know it didn't cure him he was still wounded like B5. What I found most interesting was her eyes flash blue and even thing stopped power we never seen in any other hexen, so for a hexen what is her power level?

Adalind when they are trying to get Jack to leave says Sean must have died. They had to make Jack think Sean died again for him the leave.

Sean says to his Mother that is the second time you gave me life.

She says she could only do that once likely the second time would kill her and Sean would still be dead. I think the writers used the snake for the symbol of the medical caduceus 2 snakes.

As always just my 2 cents.

And here's the other but to this. If Sean came back to life as the result of Lazarus syndrome, it could just as easily be argued that it was the doctors and medical staff who brought the syndrome on rather than Elizabeth.

Also, the caduceus is the incorrect symbol for medicine. It is actually the Rod of Asclepius which is the symbol of healing. Leave it to the US to get this completely mixed up. The caduceus is a symbol of alchemy so the two headed snake may have been appropriate in Elizabeth's case.

@jsgrimm45... very good points. Tahnks.


@irukandji I see yout point and actually I agree with you that the point in the scene, in my point of view, it was to show that only a powerfull hexanbiest would be able to save Sean: that was magic. Grimm is not completly free of magic. Juliette's tranformation in hexanbiest... the hexanbiest spirit... the connection betwaeen Nick and Adelaind during Nick lost of grimm powers... The cookie Adelaind made for Hank... Nick zommbie effects... All of those events can be explained by magic.... but also as a natural power not know by normal humans.

My guess about Sean is that he was not in Lazarus syndrome * .... maybe he was in a stage after the Lazarus Syndrome... maybe he was dead.... But he was not dead 3 days... he was dead for a few seconds... I think that is the condition... He was dead in few seconds and so Elizabeth could transfer some of her life to Sean (as you said, the hexanbiest spirit). As jsgrimm45 said, Elizabeth can do that just once. And we can do more questions... for exemple... Can this life transfer be done with anyone? Or can this be done only between hexanbiest and zauberbist? Or can this be done only between members of the same family?

Again, I think this is ok with the rest of the show: there is magic, but this is not supernatural... the magic in grimm can be explained by the power of controling forces that is almost natural.

* Lazarus syndrome: I don't think Sean was a case of Lazarus Syndrome. I quoted Lazarus syndrome just to say that this happen in real life too. And also to show that the fact the doctors gave up on Sean doesn't mean there was no other way to save him. Human medice couldn't save Sean, but a hexanbiest with the knowlodge of controlling natural powers could save him. I think the correct debate here is what natural magic power Elizabeth did use and what are the limits (rule) for the use of this magic.

Let's consider Juliette. Can the writers bring her back in the way they did with Sean?

As far as know, only Adelaind would be able to do in Juliette the same ritual did in Sean (Elizabeth did it once and can't do it again.... There is no other known hexanbiest alive in the show.... unless the writers bring a new one...)

Juliette died and her budy will be stolled by Chavez. How log will she be dead? Can Elizabeth's ritual be done in any time? If yes, why didn't Adelaind use it in her mother?

I am not against the magic... I just think it has to have limits. And the question is: What are those limits for the ressurection ritual?

(10-21-2015, 11:25 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 08:24 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 07:08 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-21-2015, 06:24 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good back points but you know there will be a but. For the B5 fans the seen something close to this, for those not on B5 the was a device that took like force from one and gave it to another for healing.

I believe Elizabeth snake was this type potion. I took the live force from her and gave it to Sean bring him back from the dead but it did have to use very quickly after death. We know it didn't cure him he was still wounded like B5. What I found most interesting was her eyes flash blue and even thing stopped power we never seen in any other hexen, so for a hexen what is her power level?

Adalind when they are trying to get Jack to leave says Sean must have died. They had to make Jack think Sean died again for him the leave.

Sean says to his Mother that is the second time you gave me life.

She says she could only do that once likely the second time would kill her and Sean would still be dead. I think the writers used the snake for the symbol of the medical caduceus 2 snakes.

As always just my 2 cents.

And here's the other but to this. If Sean came back to life as the result of Lazarus syndrome, it could just as easily be argued that it was the doctors and medical staff who brought the syndrome on rather than Elizabeth.

Also, the caduceus is the incorrect symbol for medicine. It is actually the Rod of Asclepius which is the symbol of healing. Leave it to the US to get this completely mixed up. The caduceus is a symbol of alchemy so the two headed snake may have been appropriate in Elizabeth's case.

@jsgrimm45... very good points. Tahnks.


@irukandji I see yout point and actually I agree with you that the point in the scene, in my point of view, it was to show that only a powerfull hexanbiest would be able to save Sean: that was magic. Grimm is not completly free of magic. Juliette's tranformation in hexanbiest... the hexanbiest spirit... the connection betwaeen Nick and Adelaind during Nick lost of grimm powers... The cookie Adelaind made for Hank... Nick zommbie effects... All of those events can be explained by magic.... but also as a natural power not know by normal humans.

My guess about Sean is that he was not in Lazarus syndrome * .... maybe he was in a stage after the Lazarus Syndrome... maybe he was dead.... But he was not dead 3 days... he was dead for a few seconds... I think that is the condition... He was dead in few seconds and so Elizabeth could transfer some of her life to Sean (as you said, the hexanbiest spirit). As jsgrimm45 said, Elizabeth can do that just once. And we can do more questions... for exemple... Can this life transfer be done with anyone? Or can this be done only between hexanbiest and zauberbist? Or can this be done only between members of the same family?

Again, I think this is ok with the rest of the show: there is magic, but this is not supernatural... the magic in grimm can be explained by the power of controling forces that is almost natural.

* Lazarus syndrome: I don't think Sean was a case of Lazarus Syndrome. I quoted Lazarus syndrome just to say that this happen in real life too. And also to show that the fact the doctors gave up on Sean doesn't mean there was no other way to save him. Human medice couldn't save Sean, but a hexanbiest with the knowlodge of controlling natural powers could save him. I think the correct debate here is what natural magic power Elizabeth did use and what are the limits (rule) for the use of this magic.

Let's consider Juliette. Can the writers bring her back in the way they did with Sean?

As far as know, only Adelaind would be able to do in Juliette the same ritual did in Sean (Elizabeth did it once and can't do it again.... There is no other known hexanbiest alive in the show.... unless the writers bring a new one...)

Juliette died and her budy will be stolled by Chavez. How log will she be dead? Can Elizabeth's ritual be done in any time? If yes, why didn't Adelaind use it in her mother?

I am not against the magic... I just think it has to have limits. And the question is: What are those limits for the ressurection ritual?

I like your questions on how long. I would think only a guess only seconds or a minute or two. Once the brain is dead I don't see anything working for a hexen. What did you make of Elizabeth stopping time for a few seconds? Could that have been needed to give her the time needed?

Also your question on Juliette I could see it if the want to bring Juliette back Chavez may have a hexen also we know she wesen. One of the spoiler is a locked door could that be Juliette in a hexen proof cell?

Your questions require more hair now.