(10-16-2015, 10:20 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:

(10-16-2015, 09:22 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:

(10-15-2015, 11:46 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Forum,
Only 15 days until 5.1 "The Grimm Identity." So while the discussion of magic continues, take a little break and enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuiNtC4kURk
New Guy

I've always thought this was the unofficial "mascot song" for Grimm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg

The first episode you are right could be the mascot song.

(10-14-2015, 01:04 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: I will try to mix grimm and religion to talk about magic. But I am not talking about a specific religion since my focus is not to debate if God exists or not or things like that.
As far as I know all religious or most of them are based in the idea that the human being is not only a material being, but that we have a spiritual dimension and that this dimension is connected to a superior being. Many call this superior being as God... Others call it as an energy or something... My point is that religion say human being has a spiritual dimension and because of that dimension we can alter nature using our spiritual dimension.

As many fairly tales came from middle ages where church was strong, I think the magic in those stories came from this dimension. The church, for example... Used to say witch's (in grimm, the hexanbiests) used to connect with devil to develop their powers. That is way the witch's were burned in middle ages.

I want to say that using middle ages ideas, magic is a spiritual connection between hexanbiest and some spiritual energy that allow them to alter nature.

When Nick blood "killed" hexanbiest side in Adelaind it just broke the connection. Maybe It doesn't mean that Adelaind DNA was changed.... The same way when Nick lost his grimm powers. Apparently his DNA was still the same, but his eyes were some kind of sick.

How can we explain spiritual dimension using DNA? I have no idea. Maybe some mind power...

Well, I am just writing ideas. Maybe it can help someone to develop a better theory.

(10-17-2015, 08:13 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-14-2015, 01:04 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: I will try to mix grimm and religion to talk about magic. But I am not talking about a specific religion since my focus is not to debate if God exists or not or things like that.
As far as I know all religious or most of them are based in the idea that the human being is not only a material being, but that we have a spiritual dimension and that this dimension is connected to a superior being. Many call this superior being as God... Others call it as an energy or something... My point is that religion say human being has a spiritual dimension and because of that dimension we can alter nature using our spiritual dimension.

As many fairly tales came from middle ages where church was strong, I think the magic in those stories came from this dimension. The church, for example... Used to say witch's (in grimm, the hexanbiests) used to connect with devil to develop their powers. That is way the witch's were burned in middle ages.

I want to say that using middle ages ideas, magic is a spiritual connection between hexanbiest and some spiritual energy that allow them to alter nature.

When Nick blood "killed" hexanbiest side in Adelaind it just broke the connection. Maybe It doesn't mean that Adelaind DNA was changed.... The same way when Nick lost his grimm powers. Apparently his DNA was still the same, but his eyes were some kind of sick.

How can we explain spiritual dimension using DNA? I have no idea. Maybe some mind power...

Well, I am just writing ideas. Maybe it can help someone to develop a better theory.

I meant to respond to this very interesting post the other day, but got caught up in the magic discussion. However, since that seems to have faded and the thread is going nowhere near its topic, I thought I would pick up this train of thought.

I don't want to get into a religious debate here. However, I would like to talk about good versus evil. For the purposes of talking about evil, I will use the devil as the example.

Adriano, I know of the spiritual dimension you are speaking of. When I was growing up, it was called a soul. I was taught that we all have one.

Regarding the witches of old, the church made them into devil worshipping people who were in league with him. They would brew potions, speak incantations and transform into other humans or animals. However, they could not do this on their own. They had to have the devil's assistance, and the only way to do that was to sell their souls to him. One's soul is very important to the devil, he has all the time in the world to wait, so he'll do whatever he can to make that soul his.

We know there were good witches too, and people who weren't witches at all but accused anyway. They were all persecuted, unrightfully so. I know at least once Grimm has brought up persecution and witches.

The witches in Grimm seem to be rather stylish, in both dress and attitude, with the exception of Adalind. She doesn't seem all that stylish to me. Maybe it comes with age. They are also cold, exacting, and ruthless. I have yet to see one perform a spell just for the good of it.

According to old stories and even some of the movies I've seen, the devil marks his own. All hexenbiest witches have a dark u shaped birthmark under their tongue. Could this be the mark of the devil?

Is the hexenbiest spirit an emblem that allows these hexenbiest to carry out their spells and transform? Is it some kind of emblem? Maybe it wasn't Nick's blood that banished the hexenbiest. Perhaps it was simply Adalind's belief that the blood could banish the hexenbiest and so it did. M

Maybe the hexenbiest spirit is like spirituality. A person can lose their spirituality if they lose their belief.

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: This belief has nothing to do with the European churches, it is local old time religion.

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: Generally the culprits are in league with evil spirits, dark things that go bump in the night. The witch/wizard has no power on their own, they know how to connect with the evil spirits and direct their power. Sometimes you go to another person who is also in contact with the spirit world and pay for a counter spell to protect yourself, sometimes you save the time and money and just kill the witch/wizard.

(10-17-2015, 10:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: This belief has nothing to do with the European churches, it is local old time religion.

No one said it did.

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: Generally the culprits are in league with evil spirits, dark things that go bump in the night. The witch/wizard has no power on their own, they know how to connect with the evil spirits and direct their power. Sometimes you go to another person who is also in contact with the spirit world and pay for a counter spell to protect yourself, sometimes you save the time and money and just kill the witch/wizard.

I understood the origins differently. There were women in ancient times who were healers, which included midwives. They were skilled in their knowledge of remedies and painkillers. The church, headed by men, was not pleased with women having such knowledge and viewed it as sorcery. The women were called witches and persecuted for imaginary ties with the devil. More than likely these women were pagans in the eyes of the church, and that was just one more thing the church could use to torment them.

I have no doubt that there probably were some witches out there who took to evil instead of good. They belonged to the devil and may have been marked as his. That brings me to wonder if the hexenbiests we see are truly evil and "marked" with the u-shaped birthmark under their tongues.

The greenish hexenbiest spirit might be an emblem or an amplifier in which to do their magic. Or, it could be a refce to the power of evil itself. Lord of the Rings, Heavy Metal, and the Wizard of Oz are three movies I can think of right away where the color of green is associated with evil.

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote:

(10-17-2015, 10:33 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: This belief has nothing to do with the European churches, it is local old time religion.

No one said it did.

(10-17-2015, 09:09 AM)eric Wrote: Generally the culprits are in league with evil spirits, dark things that go bump in the night. The witch/wizard has no power on their own, they know how to connect with the evil spirits and direct their power. Sometimes you go to another person who is also in contact with the spirit world and pay for a counter spell to protect yourself, sometimes you save the time and money and just kill the witch/wizard.

I understood the origins differently. There were women in ancient times who were healers, which included midwives. They were skilled in their knowledge of remedies and painkillers. The church, headed by men, was not pleased with women having such knowledge and viewed it as sorcery. The women were called witches and persecuted for imaginary ties with the devil. More than likely these women were pagans in the eyes of the church, and that was just one more thing the church could use to torment them.

I have no doubt that there probably were some witches out there who took to evil instead of good. They belonged to the devil and may have been marked as his. That brings me to wonder if the hexenbiests we see are truly evil and "marked" with the u-shaped birthmark under their tongues.

The greenish hexenbiest spirit might be an emblem or an amplifier in which to do their magic. Or, it could be a refce to the power of evil itself. Lord of the Rings, Heavy Metal, and the Wizard of Oz are three movies I can think of right away where the color of green is associated with evil.

Not wanting to be too nit picky, but when you say "the church dominated by men" thought some women were in league with the devil, that sure sounds like the churches of Europe to me. The middle and early modern times were full of witch trials in both Catholic and Protestant areas. In current times, few witches are killed in Europe, but the practice continues in other areas, even when the religion is not dominated by men, and belief in "the devil", as opposed to evil spirtis, does not really exist. Magic is "real" for many people in the modern world, along with belief in evil spirits.

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: Not wanting to be too nit picky, but when you say "the church dominated by men" thought some women were in league with the devil, that sure sounds like the churches of Europe to me. The middle and early modern times were full of witch trials in both Catholic and Protestant areas.

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: In current times, few witches are killed in Europe, but the practice continues in other areas, even when the religion is not dominated by men, and belief in "the devil", as opposed to evil spirtis, does not really exist. Magic is "real" for many people in the modern world, along with belief in evil spirits.

(10-18-2015, 08:48 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: Not wanting to be too nit picky, but when you say "the church dominated by men" thought some women were in league with the devil, that sure sounds like the churches of Europe to me. The middle and early modern times were full of witch trials in both Catholic and Protestant areas.

I don't think you're being nit picky. What I do think is you're misinterpreting my point. I'm agreeing with you that these women were practicing their healing arts prior to the power of the European church. But when the church established itself as a powerful entity, women who practiced the healing arts would have been fair game for the church to persecute.

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: In current times, few witches are killed in Europe, but the practice continues in other areas, even when the religion is not dominated by men, and belief in "the devil", as opposed to evil spirtis, does not really exist. Magic is "real" for many people in the modern world, along with belief in evil spirits.

Well, again, I'm not disagreeing with you.

(10-18-2015, 03:23 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:

(10-18-2015, 08:48 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: Not wanting to be too nit picky, but when you say "the church dominated by men" thought some women were in league with the devil, that sure sounds like the churches of Europe to me. The middle and early modern times were full of witch trials in both Catholic and Protestant areas.

I don't think you're being nit picky. What I do think is you're misinterpreting my point. I'm agreeing with you that these women were practicing their healing arts prior to the power of the European church. But when the church established itself as a powerful entity, women who practiced the healing arts would have been fair game for the church to persecute.

(10-18-2015, 07:58 AM)eric Wrote: In current times, few witches are killed in Europe, but the practice continues in other areas, even when the religion is not dominated by men, and belief in "the devil", as opposed to evil spirtis, does not really exist. Magic is "real" for many people in the modern world, along with belief in evil spirits.

Well, again, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I agree with you both and I am glad that you understood the original idea of my post.


Just to add a new element to the debate, in the past (and now a days it happens too) the human kind used to believe as magic or spiritual things that they couldn't understand. Imagine if we are able to take a computer or a cell phone or something like that to the people in middle ages... They would think it is magic.

About the church, as the women in middle ages was healing using a "spiritual power" that was not from the church (as the church believed they were the good) ... It meant they were using a power from evil... I think that was the idea behind church's actions, at least officially... Bringing this to grimm... I think the writers try to use "magic" as it was something natural... It just wasn't explained by science yet. That is why we have the impression grimm is not about magic even it having magical potions.

The Nick powers for exemple was explained as an eye characteristic... Before that we though it was magic or same thing like that....

The wesen has a DNA explanation... Even some kinds like hexenbiest having some characteristics that looks like magic...

(10-18-2015, 03:23 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: I agree with you both and I am glad that you understood the original idea of my post.


Just to add a new element to the debate, in the past (and now a days it happens too) the human kind used to believe as magic or spiritual things that they couldn't understand. Imagine if we are able to take a computer or a cell phone or something like that to the people in middle ages... They would think it is magic.

(10-18-2015, 03:23 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: About the church, as the women in middle ages was healing using a "spiritual power" that was not from the church (as the church believed they were the good) ... It meant they were using a power from evil... I think that was the idea behind church's actions, at least officially...

(10-18-2015, 03:23 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Bringing this to grimm... I think the writers try to use "magic" as it was something natural... It just wasn't explained by science yet. That is why we have the impression grimm is not about magic even it having magical potions.

The Nick powers for exemple was explained as an eye characteristic... Before that we though it was magic or same thing like that....

The wesen has a DNA explanation... Even some kinds like hexenbiest having some characteristics that looks like magic...