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+--- Thread: Diana (/Thread-Diana)
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RE: Diana - brandon - 07-05-2017
Without neckline is better.
RE: Diana - irukandji - 07-08-2017
(07-04-2017, 06:34 AM)Robyn Wrote: Because really, was there ever a ‘good guy’ character who didn’t believe the sun rose and set in Nick Burkhardt, the Grimm?
One character I can think of that didn't seem all that impressed with Nick was Meisner. Too bad Nick the doofus didn't return the lack of wow and question just exactly what happened to his former girlfriend.
(07-04-2017, 06:34 AM)Robyn Wrote: S5 was Nick’s woe-is-me over Adalind and Juliette/Eve - can’t have an Adalind/Diana reunion complicating that or even an Adalind/Meisner reunion. S6 was Nick wanting to be with Adalind and accepting Juliette/Eve isn’t the woman he was once in love with - can’t have a super power Diana complicating that, so she tosses around one of her father’s enemies and comes to love and trust Nick.
I think it was you, Robyn, who brought up that there might have been an Adalind/Meisner/Doofus triangle in the making, but then it apparently got changed in order to make the story more Nick/Adalind compatible. Am I correct on this?
Wouldn't an triangle between these three been a really good storyline? But then, I have the feeling Meisner would have won out easily over Nick. I didn't like Meisner after he beat Juliette, but he was a much more interesting and independent character than Nick. He didn't have to have a group of friends around him to believe the sun set and rose around him.
The thing I wanted to bring up with here is that you stated Diana came to love and trust Nick. Which I interpret as Nick must go through trials to eventually earn that trust.
Yet Meisner was one of the men who kidnapped her away from the royals and then dumped her in a safe house. Despite all of that, when she and Adalind are talking about Meisner, you can tell she is enamored with the guy. She loves him and trusts him. He doesn't have to do anything to earn her love or trust.
What's your opinion on this?
RE: Diana - brandon - 07-08-2017
Mesiner was the one who helped his mother to give birth.
It is true that at first she warned him when he approached Adalind asleep,it was just a baby.
She acted like an animal would,perhaps because of what his mother did she would have greater awareness that an animal and that a normal baby.
RE: Diana - rpmaluki - 07-08-2017
Diana warms up to anyone that treats her Mommy well be it Meisner or Nick.
RE: Diana - irukandji - 07-08-2017
(07-08-2017, 08:40 AM)brandon Wrote: Mesiner was the one who helped his mother to give birth.
That would endear him to Adalind, but not necessarily to Diana.
(07-08-2017, 08:40 AM)brandon Wrote: It is true that at first she warned him when he approached Adalind asleep,it was just a baby. She acted like an animal would,perhaps because of what his mother did she would have greater awareness that an animal and that a normal baby.
It's apparent when Diana and Adalind are talking about Meisner that Diana holds him in high regard and with a good deal of affection years later. She does not have that same regard for Nick, even though Nick sheltered her mother.
RE: Diana - dicappatore - 07-08-2017
(07-08-2017, 08:47 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: Diana warms up to anyone that treats her Mommy well be it Meisner or Nick.
I agree, don't forget, given her powers of awareness, at such a young age, she was very aware of Meisner being the one that helped her coming in to existence. Recall her reaction to Meisner pushing her GranDad the King, out the window. She even warned him of what was coming and did not do anything to stop it. As for Nick, he was her little brother's dad.
Also, I think she has realized that Nick is not a scumbag as some of the men she has been exposed so far in her young life, including her father, Sean. I mean, if even her own mommy is rejecting him and still is able to be with him, Shared Custody wise, why hate Nick. He hasn't done anything negative towards her. Yet, still able to love her own father.
RE: Diana - rpmaluki - 07-08-2017
Diana is very perceptive child with the ability to recall to memory things from even the first few days after being born. She's aware of her environment and is likely a good judge of character given her abilities. If she showed any hesitation towards Nick, it was because of Nick's role in Adalind's life which for any child that wants her parents together is cause for concern but we know this doesn't last.
When she went to Sean's the first time, she told Sean Mommy loved Nick like she'd resigned herself to that fact and therefore shelved any further attempts to put her parents back together. She asked Sean why he didn't love Mommy and his response was that it was because of Nick but added that he loved her to which she replied that they "all love each other then".
When Sean later tries to influence her by planting negative thoughts against Nick, saying she should tell him if Nick hurts her Mommy, she responds by saying that Nick would be sorry and that men shouldn't hurt mommies. When Bonaparte choked Adalind, Diana first asked if Sean had done it, Diana is a child but she isn't blind or stupid. Three episodes later, you see a warmer exchange between her and Nick before they leave to celebrate Monroe's birthday.
The quickest way to Diana's heart is probably through her mother. Meisner rescued Adalind (and her) but whatever she thought of Meisner at the end it was not instantaneous, had she perceived any threats from him in those first few days, he was as good as dead.
RE: Diana - Robyn - 07-09-2017
(07-04-2017, 11:24 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Robyn,Hi New Guy,
All the characters have faults and most made the "killed by list." I believe Bud may be the most innocent. There was a fun recap of seasons 1-4 by Danny Bruno but is seems to be pulled down. I do not recall Bud ever disliking Nick, or questioning what he said or did, but I do not think he would "believe the sun rose and set in Nick Burkhardt, the Grimm."
Bud was great at comic relief and also rose to hero levels in the s4e10, "Tribunal."
It’s not really about the character being completely free of faults and worthy of such love and admiration, because really, could anyone, fictional or otherwise, truly achieve that level of spiritual purification? To me at least, the flawed hero is much more interesting and endearing. When doing his best with the best of intentions he will mess up, fall short, and at times completely fail. Yet, he is trusted, loved, and to some degree admired because he continues to persevere, even when his commitment wavers.
There is a legitimate argument that Nick fits that description. My issues weren’t that Nick fell too short of worthy, but rather, the core group of ‘good guys’ shared a cult-like mentality in regards to Nick and themselves. No one in the group, especially Nick, questioned that Nick or they made ill-conceived choices, much less displayed regret over those choices.
Never was this so blaring as in Diana’s kidnapping, Juliette becoming a Hexenbiest, and Kenneth’s murder. I argue the moral and legal issues, not that there weren’t compelling reasons for their actions at the time. My issue was that every character, as they were in every situation, was completely on board with the Grimm’s point of view - no moral or legal dilemma compelling a contradictory voice. And even when Diana’s kidnapping resulted in utter devastation, no one took responsibility for their actions, and instead, blamed those outside the group and unforeseen circumstances - despite historical evidence dictating there would be costly consequences.
Nick was definitely flawed, but the other characters weren’t presented as progressing toward love and admiration for Nick despite feeling and vocalizing personal issues with his leadership and method. They idolized him and blindly followed his lead because they were written to do so, which maintained easy storytelling for G & K to the detriment of character evolution.
(07-08-2017, 08:27 AM)irukandji Wrote: The thing I wanted to bring up with here is that you stated Diana came to love and trust Nick. Which I interpret as Nick must go through trials to eventually earn that trust.Diana’s parents placed themselves between her and Zerstörer, their impaled bodies laid crumpled on the ground, and yet, Diana was oblivious to anything other than Nick and the other two Grimms. So yea, I think Diana would believe the sun rose and set in Nick because G & K’s predetermined characterization process dictated she would, not because Nick sacrificed above and beyond the other characters.
(07-08-2017, 08:27 AM)irukandji Wrote: One character I can think of that didn't seem all that impressed with Nick was Meisner. Too bad Nick the doofus didn't return the lack of wow and question just exactly what happened to his former girlfriend.
I think it was you, Robyn, who brought up that there might have been an Adalind/Meisner/Doofus triangle in the making, but then it apparently got changed in order to make the story more Nick/Adalind compatible. Am I correct on this?
Wouldn't an triangle between these three been a really good storyline? But then, I have the feeling Meisner would have won out easily over Nick. I didn't like Meisner after he beat Juliette, but he was a much more interesting and independent character than Nick. He didn't have to have a group of friends around him to believe the sun set and rose around him.
The thing I wanted to bring up with here is that you stated Diana came to love and trust Nick. Which I interpret as Nick must go through trials to eventually earn that trust.
Yet Meisner was one of the men who kidnapped her away from the royals and then dumped her in a safe house. Despite all of that, when she and Adalind are talking about Meisner, you can tell she is enamored with the guy. She loves him and trusts him. He doesn't have to do anything to earn her love or trust.
What's your opinion on this?
First, “Adalind/Meisner/Doofus” Hee-hee. Second, I absolutely believe a Meisner/Adalind/Nick triangle would have been a better storyline than Adalind’s unfounded can’t-live-without-Nick lovefest being contradicted by Nick’s baseless woe-is-me trust issues with Adalind. Actually, the naturally occurring complications between Nick, Adalind, Trubel, Meisner, and Eve-Juliette could have spilled over into every episode following The Rat King.
Wesen Nacht, The Destruction of Eve, and even that ridiculous Reptile Dysfunction, were chocked full of promises, or at the very least, possibilities of things to come. Meisner creating an intimate portrayal of Adalind during his flashback/daydream of Diana’s birth which followed his clearly emotional response to Adalind in Portland, with Nick, suggested he would have swooped up mother and child had he been aware earlier. It also suggested he was struggling with the dilemma that his feelings for Adalind could compromise the mission needing the Grimm in it’s arsenal.
I don’t have a problem, per say, with Meisner ‘beating up’ Juliette. The show portrayed Juliette as unhinged and incapable of taking control over her rage or the Hexenbiest influence. Meisner reacted strategically as a soldier - Juliette would be put down as one would a rabid dog or she would be cured/her rage controlled and redirected toward a positive objective. I’m not on board with the show’s portrayal of Juliette as a raging psychotic Hexenbiest, I’m only agreeing with Meisner taking control of the situation by making the hard decision that Nick couldn’t or wouldn’t.
I prefer Juliette having the fortitude to take control of her life and situation rather than being mentally fractured into an artificial persona, but because G & K took that route, my issue is with their complete lack of commitment to follow through.
Claire Coffee said in an interview that Eve would barge into Nick & Adalind’s home and confront Nick over his commitment to family compromising his loyalty to HW. That sounds like the character introduced to Nick and viewers in The Destruction of Eve. Eve threatening Adalind if she hurt Nick, promising to do everything in her power to keep Nick’s son safe, and compromising the mission to help with Nick’s personal problems does not. And the show didn’t provide a reason for Eve’s emotional change in behavior. It simply followed the standard format of every character in the ‘good guy camp’ loves and idolizes Nick Burkhardt, the Grimm. It would have made more sense for the Eve character to confront Meisner over his feeling for Adalind jeopardizing the mission and Burkhardt’s alliance.
Meisner - I think the show retrofitted him into the ‘everyone circles the central character/hero’ position. The pre S5 Meisner would not have tolerated Nick’s ambivalence regarding HW and the Wesen uprising. He would have confronted Nick and demanded a decision so he could strategize accordingly. Pre S5 Meisner and Eve as originally introduced would have told Nick that they provided sufficient intel for him to protect his son, and Adalind, from BC and his failure to do so jeopardized the mission. I certainly don’t see Meisner as a heartless bastard, but rather, a man who remains focused on a specific course of action. He doesn’t apologize for what he believes has to be done, nor does he allow his emotions to derail his determination and responsibility. At least the pre S5 version didn’t.
As for Diana’s feelings for Meisner - Considering that Adalind didn’t learn of ghost Meisner, viewers already knew, and Adalind was too devoted to Nick to regard Meisner as anything other than a person who once helped her, that conversation would have made more sense between Diana and Renard. Having the conversation with Renard would have gone a long way in validating Meisner’s earlier confession that helping bring Diana into the world had a profound effect and they shared an emotional bond. We also have to consider that G & K presented Diana and Adalind as having a rather selective memory concerning Diana’s kidnappings and those involved, which was constructed to cast a positive light on the ‘good guy’ characters and assist storylines. Diana referred to Kelly as her other mommy and told Juliette she missed her. But considering Diana didn’t have the slightest emotional response to Kelly in the finale, Diana’s reference was meant to stab at Juliette’s guilt and once done, her emotional bond to Nick’s mother disappeared. But then, she didn’t have an emotional response to her dead parents, so what does any of it really mean beyond the immediate moment?
RE: Diana - irukandji - 07-09-2017
(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote:(07-08-2017, 08:27 AM)irukandji Wrote: The thing I wanted to bring up with here is that you stated Diana came to love and trust Nick. Which I interpret as Nick must go through trials to eventually earn that trust.Diana’s parents placed themselves between her and Zerstörer, their impaled bodies laid crumpled on the ground, and yet, Diana was oblivious to anything other than Nick and the other two Grimms. So yea, I think Diana would believe the sun rose and set in Nick because G & K’s predetermined characterization process dictated she would, not because Nick sacrificed above and beyond the other characters.
I understand what you're saying. For me, because the writing was often so poor, I never really saw any deep connection forming between Diana and anyone, least of all Nick. In my opinion, Diana was given back to Renard so that Adalind would come on board with the baby and make the perfect family type picture. That appealed to the people behind Renard's campaign and apparently appealed to Diana as well. In the end Diana became a grimm to make the perfect family picture, but I think only because killing appeals to her, not because she believes there's any honor in being a grimm.
(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: I don’t have a problem, per say, with Meisner ‘beating up’ Juliette. The show portrayed Juliette as unhinged and incapable of taking control over her rage or the Hexenbiest influence. Meisner reacted strategically as a soldier - Juliette would be put down as one would a rabid dog or she would be cured/her rage controlled and redirected toward a positive objective. I’m not on board with the show’s portrayal of Juliette as a raging psychotic Hexenbiest, I’m only agreeing with Meisner taking control of the situation by making the hard decision that Nick couldn’t or wouldn’t.
And I would agree, except Juliette did not direct her rage at Meisner. Her rage was directed at Nick and even then, not to the terrible extent we were made to believe. If it had been she either would have seduced Nick to putty or killed him and Adalind with a single zap.
Even the writing itself seems to support the raging hexenbiest position when Adalind herself stated that there wasn't a hexenbiest who hadn't destroyed a bar here and there.
My issue with Meisner in all of this is that he didn't fit within the storyline, period. He was some external force who happened to show up later to explain Juliette's disappearance and supposed death, and then her complete change to Eve.
(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: I prefer Juliette having the fortitude to take control of her life and situation rather than being mentally fractured into an artificial persona, but because G & K took that route, my issue is with their complete lack of commitment to follow through.
Totally agree. This applies even to Nick and the supporting characters like Monroe and Rosalee.
(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: Claire Coffee said in an interview that Eve would barge into Nick & Adalind’s home and confront Nick over his commitment to family compromising his loyalty to HW. That sounds like the character introduced to Nick and viewers in The Destruction of Eve. Eve threatening Adalind if she hurt Nick, promising to do everything in her power to keep Nick’s son safe, and compromising the mission to help with Nick’s personal problems does not. And the show didn’t provide a reason for Eve’s emotional change in behavior. It simply followed the standard format of every character in the ‘good guy camp’ loves and idolizes Nick Burkhardt, the Grimm. It would have made more sense for the Eve character to confront Meisner over his feeling for Adalind jeopardizing the mission and Burkhardt’s alliance.
I never got the impression that Nick was all that much into the HW mission. And I didn't get the impression that Meisner was all bowled over with Nick once he met the grimm in the flesh.
But that aside, oddly enough, I actually thought the scene where Eve barged into the fome made some sense. Adalind had become a hexenbiest again and Eve sensed something about her that raised her suspicions.
I myself wondered if G&K were going to take that route with this supposed suppression potion, and have Adalind change drastically, but instead they caved and the whole picture of the terrified Adalind, afraid of her hexenbiest returning, never materialized into anything but about five minutes of drama.
(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: First, “Adalind/Meisner/Doofus” Hee-hee. Second, I absolutely believe a Meisner/Adalind/Nick triangle would have been a better storyline than Adalind’s unfounded can’t-live-without-Nick lovefest being contradicted by Nick’s baseless woe-is-me trust issues with Adalind. Actually, the naturally occurring complications between Nick, Adalind, Trubel, Meisner, and Eve-Juliette could have spilled over into every episode following The Rat King.
And it would have made for a far interesting story than Z, his staff, and what it can do for Nick.
The whole Nick/Adalind pairing suffers from the least amount of attention in my opinion. All I see here is the writers coming to a decision that they should put these two characters together and let nature take its course. Forget that both of them absolutely despised one another so by making them lovers, (and not even altering the story so they at least have some chemistry), it also makes them shallow people who are unable to hold to any type of commitment. Not to one another, but to themselves.
RE: Diana - Robyn - 07-09-2017
(07-09-2017, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote:I don’t see where the show established anything absolute about Diana other than she was a plot twist since conception, in the womb and on the storyboard. She could very well have an instinctive propensity for violence and death. She could just as easily be the product of her horrific beginning - exposed to violence and death while in utero, followed by multiple kidnappings by strangers. It would be much akin to a child bouncing from one set of foster parents to another. In real life the adults want the monthly allowance. In the fictional Grimm world, the adults want control of the powers. In both worlds, no one who takes the child loves and wants her just for herself.(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: Diana’s parents placed themselves between her and Zerstörer, their impaled bodies laid crumpled on the ground, and yet, Diana was oblivious to anything other than Nick and the other two Grimms. So yea, I think Diana would believe the sun rose and set in Nick because G & K’s predetermined characterization process dictated she would, not because Nick sacrificed above and beyond the other characters.I understand what you're saying. For me, because the writing was often so poor, I never really saw any deep connection forming between Diana and anyone, least of all Nick. In my opinion, Diana was given back to Renard so that Adalind would come on board with the baby and make the perfect family type picture. That appealed to the people behind Renard's campaign and apparently appealed to Diana as well. In the end Diana became a grimm to make the perfect family picture, but I think only because killing appeals to her, not because she believes there's any honor in being a grimm.
I agree there wasn’t any Nick/Diana bonding until the last few minutes of the finale. Nothing led up to it, it just suddenly existed. But then, nothing concrete led to Nick/Adalind being a committed couple in S6, they just suddenly were.
(07-09-2017, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote:No, Juliette didn’t direct anything at Meisner, but she didn’t know he existed nor did he interfere. Meisner wasn’t motivated by revenge or any other emotion. He believed the Hexenbiest could be a valuable soldier/weapon in the HW arsenal, and so would the Grimm if he could get them to work together.(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: I don’t have a problem, per say, with Meisner ‘beating up’ Juliette. The show portrayed Juliette as unhinged and incapable of taking control over her rage or the Hexenbiest influence. Meisner reacted strategically as a soldier - Juliette would be put down as one would a rabid dog or she would be cured/her rage controlled and redirected toward a positive objective. I’m not on board with the show’s portrayal of Juliette as a raging psychotic Hexenbiest, I’m only agreeing with Meisner taking control of the situation by making the hard decision that Nick couldn’t or wouldn’t.And I would agree, except Juliette did not direct her rage at Meisner. Her rage was directed at Nick and even then, not to the terrible extent we were made to believe. If it had been she either would have seduced Nick to putty or killed him and Adalind with a single zap.
Even the writing itself seems to support the raging hexenbiest position when Adalind herself stated that there wasn't a hexenbiest who hadn't destroyed a bar here and there.
My issue with Meisner in all of this is that he didn't fit within the storyline, period. He was some external force who happened to show up later to explain Juliette's disappearance and supposed death, and then her complete change to Eve.
(07-09-2017, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote:The only opinion I have with this is that G &K held back on total commitment to anything because it was easier for them to change up storylines and character behavior. So pretty much - cohesive story and character continuity be damned.(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: I prefer Juliette having the fortitude to take control of her life and situation rather than being mentally fractured into an artificial persona, but because G & K took that route, my issue is with their complete lack of commitment to follow through.Totally agree. This applies even to Nick and the supporting characters like Monroe and Rosalee.
(07-09-2017, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote:I never got the impression Nick had any interest or concern with the Wesen Uprising, or with HW unless he needed their assistance with something personally important to him. Nick traveled to Germany for the treasure hidden by the keys, but couldn’t take an afternoon off when told BC would use Diana to coerce Adalind. So I don’t really see any coherent rationale in Nick’s mindset.(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: Claire Coffee said in an interview that Eve would barge into Nick & Adalind’s home and confront Nick over his commitment to family compromising his loyalty to HW. That sounds like the character introduced to Nick and viewers in The Destruction of Eve. Eve threatening Adalind if she hurt Nick, promising to do everything in her power to keep Nick’s son safe, and compromising the mission to help with Nick’s personal problems does not. And the show didn’t provide a reason for Eve’s emotional change in behavior. It simply followed the standard format of every character in the ‘good guy camp’ loves and idolizes Nick Burkhardt, the Grimm. It would have made more sense for the Eve character to confront Meisner over his feeling for Adalind jeopardizing the mission and Burkhardt’s alliance.I never got the impression that Nick was all that much into the HW mission. And I didn't get the impression that Meisner was all bowled over with Nick once he met the grimm in the flesh.
But that aside, oddly enough, I actually thought the scene where Eve barged into the fome made some sense. Adalind had become a hexenbiest again and Eve sensed something about her that raised her suspicions.
I myself wondered if G&K were going to take that route with this supposed suppression potion, and have Adalind change drastically, but instead they caved and the whole picture of the terrified Adalind, afraid of her hexenbiest returning, never materialized into anything but about five minutes of drama.
Meisner fell victim to the ‘no one can stand out as superior’ syndrome. Pre S5 Meisner would have quickly sized up Nick as something Renard over embellished to the Resistance and HW intel incorrectly assessed. But within the confines of the show, Meisner had to fall in line behind the central character. I agree Meisner didn’t fawn over Nick, but he didn’t force Nick to get off the fence or stay the hell out of HW either.
My problem with Eve confronting Adalind was her motivation. Even Rosalee likened it to Juliette-like behavior. Eve was supposed to be the laser focused, emotionally detached killing-machine soldier. She would threaten Adalind if her actions might jeopardize a valuable HW asset, but not because Adalind might hurt Nick’s feelings.
So Eve taking that stance doesn’t make sense. And if Juliette was seeping up to the surface, it’s arrogance pure and simple. Juliette had severely hurt Nick just months before, so why would she be taking the high road. At that point, Adalind was making a concerted effort to provide her son a loving and nurturing life, and was loyal to Nick. But all Eve had done was take on a new name and job.
(07-09-2017, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote:Absolutely. If G & K settled on Nick/Adalind eventually becoming a committed couple, they could have at least made Nick’s relationship with Adalind different than his prior relationship with Juliette. They had all the components necessary for Nick/Adalind to naturally begin with a chaotic, distrustful, head-butting, sexually fueled path to couplehood.(07-09-2017, 08:18 AM)Robyn Wrote: First, “Adalind/Meisner/Doofus” Hee-hee. Second, I absolutely believe a Meisner/Adalind/Nick triangle would have been a better storyline than Adalind’s unfounded can’t-live-without-Nick lovefest being contradicted by Nick’s baseless woe-is-me trust issues with Adalind. Actually, the naturally occurring complications between Nick, Adalind, Trubel, Meisner, and Eve-Juliette could have spilled over into every episode following The Rat King.And it would have made for a far interesting story than Z, his staff, and what it can do for Nick.
The whole Nick/Adalind pairing suffers from the least amount of attention in my opinion. All I see here is the writers coming to a decision that they should put these two characters together and let nature take its course. Forget that both of them absolutely despised one another so by making them lovers, (and not even altering the story so they at least have some chemistry), it also makes them shallow people who are unable to hold to any type of commitment. Not to one another, but to themselves.
But where would they find the time for those hold-on-to-your-seat riveting WoW episodes such as Rat King and Reptile Dysfunction if they incorporated even a fraction of what we’ve discussed into S5? *grin*