Grimm Forum
Diana - Printable Version

+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Characters (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Characters)
+--- Thread: Diana (/Thread-Diana)



RE: Diana - jsgrimm45 - 03-09-2016

Here's a thought could some of Eve's power be drawing from Diana? Is that why Chavez and Miesner wanted Diana? So if Diana leaves HW will that weaken Eve but make Adalind stronger?


RE: Diana - New Guy - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 11:36 AM)irukandji Wrote:
(03-09-2016, 11:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: What facts can you provide that she is innocent?
New Guy

The big one; innocent until proven guilty.

I agree Juliette collaborated with Kenneth to get Diana. That meant luring Kelly to the house. We know she did all that. Kenneth contacted her and she sent the email.

There is nothing that shows anywhere she collaborated with Kenneth to have Kelly murdered.

And for all of this posting back and forth, not one person can provide a reasonable explanation as to why Juliette told Nick she didn't know Kelly was going to be murdered (paraphrasing here). All I keep hearing is that Juliette was lying. Yet no one can come up with anything to support why she'd be lying to Nick at that particular point in time.
Hi Irukandji,
The phrase:
Quote:innocent until proven guilty
is a principle in the American criminal justice system. It is not a fact. The incriminating fact is that she betrayed Kelly by a lie to get her to come to Portland. The motive for the betrayal was revenge against Nick, Adalind and the unborn child. Her intention to kill was abundantly clear in the precinct scene.
The eleven evidential facts I presented earlier seem to be conclusive in the "Court of Nicholas Burkhardt." His verdict is guilty. Once again:
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
Nick: You betrayed her! [He grabs her and pins her against a wall to choke her]
Juliette: [Gasping] Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it. [She gasps more. Nick lets go of her and she catches her breath] You can't put me out of your misery, huh? I hope you're not going to tell me you're still in love with me.
Nick: Get out.
This scene is in the room with Kelly's decapitated head in a box. Without Hexenette's betrayal and lie, Kelly would be alive. IMO, Nick does not release the choke because Hexenette is trustworthy and telling the truth. IMO, he simply cannot kill the woman he once loved and wanted as his wife. IMO, he knows Hexenette is lying, she helped kill his Mother and she could care less. He just wants her to "get out."
New Guy


RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-09-2016

New Guy-
In response to your question, I haven't seen any evidence that Juliette participated in planning and executing Kelly's murder. I don't even see evidence that she was told about the murder. That to me is proof that she is innocent of murder.

*If* she was, then there would have been a contingency plan for Diana. For instance, Kenneth would have told her about the murder, and to take Diana upstairs with her. Diana was left alone in the living room.

In point of fact, do we know that Kenneth's intention was to murder Kelly? Did that come out somewhere in the scripts?



Here's a quick rebuttal to your facts. Note that you used some of these more than once, so there are less than eleven. I agreed with some, but not all.


Quote:1.Kenneth got Hexenette on board to complete a mission. ----

Agreed. We saw Kenneth approach Juliette to obtain Diana. We witnessed this event.

Quote:2.Hexenette agreed to betray Kelly, lie about Nick's danger, and lure her to the house. ------

Agreed. There was an email, supporting evidence.

Quote:3.The planning of the mission occurred in the hotel. -----

Without concrete proof, how do we know? --- I'm going to say there's nothing to support this. If you want to provide the portion of the script to back it up, I would be willing to amend.

Quote:4. Hexenette participated in those plans. -----

Disagree, but if you have a script to support where the audience witnessed this, I'll reconsider.

Quote: 5. The mission included the abduction of Diana.----

The mission was the abduction of Diana.

Quote: 6. Hexenette used Nick's computer to send the email to Kelly containing lies to lure her back to Portland.

Already covered in number 2.

Quote: 7. Hexenette came to Nick's house with Kenneth to bait Kelly.

Already covered in number 2.


Quote: 8. Hexenette again lied to Kelly when she arrived and lured her into the house.

Already covered in number 2.

Quote:9. Hexenette heard the brutal murder. {Side note - She showed no expression, as if ok, sounds like Kenneth got it (Kelly's murder) done.}

Disagree. Hearing shuffling and fighting is not proof of a murder.
Quote:10. She did nothing to stop it.

Disagree. She didn't know Kelly was going to be murdered. She can't prevent something she had no knowledge of.


Quote: 11. She took Diana to the car and drove to the Royal compound with the blood stained Kenneth.

I thought someone else drove and she was with Diana in the back seat.

Quote: 11. After the helicopter left, Hexenette returned to the scene of the crime and attempted to murder Nick.

Agreed.

Quote:Her intention to kill was abundantly clear in the precinct scene.

This is not a fact that supports Juliette's guilt, New Guy. This is your impression. That's like saying Nick's intention was abundantly clear to kill Juliette back at the house. He was prevented from doing so, just like Juliette was prevented from doing so.


RE: Diana - syscrash - 03-09-2016

Quote:Here's a thought could some of Eve's power be drawing from Diana? Is that why Chavez and Miesner wanted Diana? So if Diana leaves HW will that weaken Eve but make Adalind stronger?

What would be the bases of you theory? Eve and Diana where created during two none related processes.
Yes Adalind had Nick's blood when with Sean she created Diana. But she was not a hexenbiest for Diana to inherit. I think Diana's power was from the Contaminatio Ritual. The ritual could have restored Adalind spirit and created Diana.

As for Eve, her added power explanation came from Rosalee, made hexenbiest are stronger the regular hexenbiest. But wasn't Adalind a made hexenbiest after the Ritual. I have a explanation for that. She was restored and since she was not a hexenbiest at the time of conception. Then Diana was made, explaining why she has so much power.

AS for how Eve came to be. Bare with me will use Star Trek logic.
When Adalind took Nick's powers, as a metaphor lets say that created a locked door which hide his powers. When they restored his powers. The spell unlocked the door so his powers could return. The side effect, the door is now open, anyone with lost powers can be restored by sleeping with Nick. Juliette as Adalind without powers sleep's with Nick, powers restored. In Juliette's case once back as Juliette it no long reacts as restoration but becomes creation. Adalind now sleeps with Nick her powers are restored. This would be a interesting story line. Would Nick sleep with another wesen to restore her lost powers.


RE: Diana - New Guy - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 01:15 PM)irukandji Wrote: New Guy-
Here's a quick rebuttal to your facts. Note that you used some of these more than once, so there are less than eleven. I agreed with some, but not all.


Quote:1.Kenneth got Hexenette on board to complete a mission. ----

Agreed. We saw Kenneth approach Juliette to obtain Diana. We witnessed this event.

Quote:2.Hexenette agreed to betray Kelly, lie about Nick's danger, and lure her to the house. ------

Agreed. There was an email, supporting evidence.

Quote:3.The planning of the mission occurred in the hotel. -----

Without concrete proof, how do we know? --- I'm going to say there's nothing to support this. If you want to provide the portion of the script to back it up, I would be willing to amend.

Quote:4. Hexenette participated in those plans. -----

Disagree, but if you have a script to support where the audience witnessed this, I'll reconsider.

Quote: 5. The mission included the abduction of Diana.----

The mission was the abduction of Diana.

Quote: 6. Hexenette used Nick's computer to send the email to Kelly containing lies to lure her back to Portland.

Already covered in number 2.

Quote: 7. Hexenette came to Nick's house with Kenneth to bait Kelly.

Already covered in number 2.


Quote: 8. Hexenette again lied to Kelly when she arrived and lured her into the house.

Already covered in number 2.

Quote:9. Hexenette heard the brutal murder. {Side note - She showed no expression, as if ok, sounds like Kenneth got it (Kelly's murder) done.}

Disagree. Hearing shuffling and fighting is not proof of a murder.
Quote:10. She did nothing to stop it.

Disagree. She didn't know Kelly was going to be murdered. She can't prevent something she had no knowledge of.


Quote: 11. She took Diana to the car and drove to the Royal compound with the blood stained Kenneth.

I thought someone else drove and she was with Diana in the back seat.

Quote: 11. After the helicopter left, Hexenette returned to the scene of the crime and attempted to murder Nick.

Agreed.

Quote:Her intention to kill was abundantly clear in the precinct scene.

This is not a fact that supports Juliette's guilt, New Guy. This is your impression. That's like saying Nick's intention was abundantly clear to kill Juliette back at the house. He was prevented from doing so, just like Juliette was prevented from doing so.

I hold to my position. You agree to some items but disagree with the fact that the mission was planned in the hotel room.
It is an absolute fact that Hexenette went over the house floor plan in detail and gave details about the neighbors to Kenneth in the hotel. Those details were used in several brutal murders. The script from the hotel scene was provided earlier.
Unless you provide conclusive proof that Kenneth made no such plans I hold fast in reliance of facts presented that Hexenette materially participated in the Murder of Kelly and the massacre of the neighbors. Only an imbecile would not know why Kenneth was asking those questions. IMO Hexenette was not an innocent imbecile but a willing accomplice. Hexentte knew full well the mission was abduct Diana and murder Kelly.
If the mission was only the abduction, she would have met Kelly, given her a phony location where Nick was "in danger of being killed" and stayed in the house with Diana while Kelly tore off to save Nick. She had made it abundantly clear she intended and had attempted to kill Scoobies. Killing Kelly was just part of her objectives. Killing remains FrankenEve's objective, but Meisner and HW seem to have moved her focus from killing Scoobies to killing BC. She is all about kill, kill kill. She is guilty, guilty, guilty.
New Guy


RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 01:43 PM)New Guy Wrote: I hold to my position. You agree to some items but disagree with the fact that the mission was planned in the hotel room.
It is an absolute fact that Hexenette went over the house floor plan in detail and gave details about the neighbors to Kenneth in the hotel. Those details were used in several brutal murders. The script from the hotel scene was provided earlier.

I know she gave Kenneth details about the neighbors' houses. I don't know if it occurred at the hotel room or if she took him around the block and explained as she went.

The details were used in several murders. But don't try to insert your own perspective into these facts by stating Juliette knew that Kelly was going to be murdered and Juliette knew the neighbors were going to be murdered and Juliette participated in the murders.

You don't know that, New Guy. No one does because that was never ever revealed in the story. Any additions you make to the facts does not make them facts. All it does is put your spin on the facts.

(03-09-2016, 01:43 PM)New Guy Wrote: Unless you provide conclusive proof that Kenneth made no such plans I hold fast in reliance of facts presented that Hexenette materially participated in the Murder of Kelly and the massacre of the neighbors. Only an imbecile would not know why Kenneth was asking those questions. IMO Hexenette was not an innocent imbecile but a willing accomplice. Hexentte knew full well the mission was abduct Diana and murder Kelly.

See, there you go again. You want conclusive proof from me that Kenneth made no plans, but *IN* your opinion, Juliette was a willing accomplice. *In* your opinion Juliette knew full well the mission was to obtain Diana and murder Kelly.

And you still haven't explained why, for all of her knowledge, Juliette told Nick she didn't know Kelly was going to be murdered (paraphrasing here).

(03-09-2016, 01:43 PM)New Guy Wrote: If the mission was only the abduction, she would have met Kelly, given her a phony location where Nick was "in danger of being killed" and stayed in the house with Diana while Kelly tore off to save Nick. She had made it abundantly clear she intended and had attempted to kill Scoobies. Killing Kelly was just part of her objectives. Killing remains FrankenEve's objective, but Meisner and HW seem to have moved her focus from killing Scoobies to killing BC. She is all about kill, kill kill. She is guilty, guilty, guilty.
New Guy

Again, your opinion with no facts to back it up.


RE: Diana - jsgrimm45 - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 01:35 PM)syscrash Wrote:
Quote:Here's a thought could some of Eve's power be drawing from Diana? Is that why Chavez and Miesner wanted Diana? So if Diana leaves HW will that weaken Eve but make Adalind stronger?

What would be the bases of you theory? Eve and Diana where created during two none related processes.
Yes Adalind had Nick's blood when with Sean she created Diana. But she was not a hexenbiest for Diana to inherit. I think Diana's power was from the Contaminatio Ritual. The ritual could have restored Adalind spirit and created Diana.

As for Eve, her added power explanation came from Rosalee, made hexenbiest are stronger the regular hexenbiest. But wasn't Adalind a made hexenbiest after the Ritual. I have a explanation for that. She was restored and since she was not a hexenbiest at the time of conception. Then Diana was made, explaining why she has so much power.

AS for how Eve came to be. Bare with me will use Star Trek logic.
When Adalind took Nick's powers, as a metaphor lets say that created a locked door which hide his powers. When they restored his powers. The spell unlocked the door so his powers could return. The side effect, the door is now open, anyone with lost powers can be restored by sleeping with Nick. Juliette as Adalind without powers sleep's with Nick, powers restored. In Juliette's case once back as Juliette it no long reacts as restoration but becomes creation. Adalind now sleeps with Nick her powers are restored. This would be a interesting story line. Would Nick sleep with another wesen to restore her lost powers.
I agree to most of this but what if Diana isn't Sean's? You are right about the Contaminatio Ritual making Diana but could we add Nick's blood to this also making her stronger? Diana if nothing had happened between Nick and Adalind would have be a normal hexenbiest but now she not so we may have more than one reason for this. Juliette I will always think the hat had something to do with that, now again add Nick to the story and Diana connection to Nick blood, plus add Elizabeth said Adalind had no idea what this link might be in taking Nick's powers.

Could both Diana power and Eve's all be because of this link. In one the blood of a Grimm in the other the hat and a link to the same Grimm? This maybel could link Diana and Eve. Just a thought.


RE: Diana - syscrash - 03-09-2016

What New Guy fails to consider is. Results do not constitute intent. You can not even use the results to determine cause and effect. To determine cause you need the observed parameters. You can not determine cause based on assumed, or implied variables. New Guy is using the same logic that had people believing the world was flat. That people could not see the earths curvature then it did not exist. Even though scientist at the time used the rising of a ship mast to prove curvature. Those in charge rationalize it as the ship to far away so you could only see a small part of the mast. Their proof that the world was flat was ships did not come back so they must have fallen off the edge. That is New Guys argument the people died, so that must have been the plan.
I have said it before New Guys makes very cohesive arguments. Though they lack facts. What I find interesting New Guy gives a lot of insight why people buy into propaganda. If I was a casual viewer New Guys position would be accepted without question. Notice the rebuttals take work. I still wonder is New Guys post a believed position, just playing devil advocate, or someone that is practicing debate strategy.


RE: Diana - New Guy - 03-09-2016

Syscrash and Irukandji,
I presented facts. I presented scripts. I presented a preponderance of evidence.
If you want to rebut then prove Hexenette did not agree to betray Kelly.
Prove she was not in the hotel room.
Prove she did not discuss the floor plan.
Prove she did not discuss the neighbors.
Prove she did not tell Kelly the house was safe.
The bottom line is Hexenette did all those things and all were used by Kenneth for murder.
New Guy


RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-09-2016

(03-09-2016, 03:29 PM)New Guy Wrote: Syscrash and Irukandji,
I presented facts. I presented scripts. I presented a preponderance of evidence.
If you want to rebut then prove Hexenette did not agree to betray Kelly.
Prove she was not in the hotel room.
Prove she did not discuss the floor plan.
Prove she did not discuss the neighbors.
Prove she did not tell Kelly the house was safe.
The bottom line is Hexenette did all those things and all were used by Kenneth for murder.
New Guy

I don't remember her telling Kelly the house was safe. I'm not sure why she would do that?

In any case, Kenneth did use all of those things (except for the discussion of the house being safe) for the murder of Kelly.

That still does not in any way, shape, or form conclusively prove that Juliette agreed to the murder of Kelly or participated in the murder of Kelly or the neighbors.

The one thing I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up here is the issue that Kelly herself might bring some big guns into the picture. There was no guarantee that just because Juliette emailed her and told her Nick was in trouble (or whatever she said), Kelly was going to take Juliette at her word. There's never been any indication in the show that Kelly completely and absolutely trusted Juliette.

Kenneth might have been scoping the neighborhood and getting things ready in case Kelly brought some help with her.