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+--- Thread: Diana (/Thread-Diana)
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RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-08-2016
(03-08-2016, 02:26 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:17 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:09 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 12:40 PM)irukandji Wrote: Juliette didn't kill Kelly. Beside that, Diana had ample opportunity to kill her the night Kelly did......if she wanted to. The fact that she didn't life a finger to hurt Juliette, and in fact, seemed to like Juliette shows she isn't going to go after her. Nick on the other hand, I have a feeling she might go after him.
Look, I know you and I will never agree on this. But aiding and abetting makes the person who did it just as guilty as the person who "pulls the trigger" or whatever. That is the maxim in both morality and the law.
Juliette lured Kelly in to be murdered. She also provided information to aide and abet the murder of several of her neighbors and this nonsense about "she didn't know they were going to be murdered" is absolute bull. What did she think the werrat were going to do? Throw everyone a surprise block party?
She lied about it to Nick because HW wants and needs him to work with them. Pretty straight forward really.
The only thing Juliette is guilty of in this case is betraying Kelly. You can say she's full of bull until the cows come home but the fact remains, you have no proof she knew Kelly was going to be murdered.
Question: What else could she have possibly thought that the werrat were going to do?
So you're asking her to read minds now, is that it? And aside for that, I keep reading comments that Juliette never understood Nick's world. So you tell me, if the woman didn't understand his world, what would she have thought the verrat were going to do? Would she have even known what verrat were?
RE: Diana - wfmyers1207 - 03-08-2016
(03-08-2016, 02:32 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:26 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:17 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:09 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 12:40 PM)irukandji Wrote: Juliette didn't kill Kelly. Beside that, Diana had ample opportunity to kill her the night Kelly did......if she wanted to. The fact that she didn't life a finger to hurt Juliette, and in fact, seemed to like Juliette shows she isn't going to go after her. Nick on the other hand, I have a feeling she might go after him.
Look, I know you and I will never agree on this. But aiding and abetting makes the person who did it just as guilty as the person who "pulls the trigger" or whatever. That is the maxim in both morality and the law.
Juliette lured Kelly in to be murdered. She also provided information to aide and abet the murder of several of her neighbors and this nonsense about "she didn't know they were going to be murdered" is absolute bull. What did she think the werrat were going to do? Throw everyone a surprise block party?
She lied about it to Nick because HW wants and needs him to work with them. Pretty straight forward really.
The only thing Juliette is guilty of in this case is betraying Kelly. You can say she's full of bull until the cows come home but the fact remains, you have no proof she knew Kelly was going to be murdered.
Question: What else could she have possibly thought that the werrat were going to do?
So you're asking her to read minds now, is that it? And aside for that, I keep reading comments that Juliette never understood Nick's world. So you tell me, if the woman didn't understand his world, what would she have thought the verrat were going to do? Would she have even known what verrat were?
OK, now that doesn't even make sense. The character of Juliette knew what the werrat were since S2, Episode 22 when they tried to kidnap Nick.
RE: Diana - New Guy - 03-08-2016
Hi Forum,
This discussion about FrankenEve will never resolve unless she decides to tell the truth. Hexenette was full on hexenbiest when she returned to the house:
Quote:Scene: Nick arrives home and goes inside where Juliette is waiting.
Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
Nick: You betrayed her! [He grabs her and pins her against a wall to choke her]
Juliette: [Gasping] Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it. [She gasps more. Nick lets go of her and she catches her breath] You can't put me out of your misery, huh? I hope you're not going to tell me you're still in love with me.
Nick: Get out.
From Grimm Wiki regarding hexenbiest behavior:
Quote:They [hexenbiest] are feared throughout the Wesen community and are not above bullying weaker Wesen. Even Monroe has seemed worried about dealing with Hexenbiests. It seems as though they are known for telling lies, as Kelly Burkhardt was surprised that Catherine Schade told the truth to Nick, ("Bad Teeth") and Stefania Vaduva Popescu confirmed that Adalind's baby was a Royal and didn't take Adalind's word for it even though she was only a former Hexenbiest. ("Volcanalis")
IMO, Hexenette's claim "I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that." was another incident of a hexenbiest lie.
Nick knows Juliette/Hexenette/FrankenEve betrayed Kelly to her death. That is clear from the restaurant scene:
Quote:Scene: Nick arrives at the restaurant.
Nick: [He goes inside and looks around until he spots Juliette sitting in the back. He pauses and then goes to her table. He sighs] I thought you were dead. [He sits down and exhales] Oh, Juliette.
Eve: My name isn't Juliette.
Nick: What am I supposed to call you?
Eve: They call me Eve.
Nick: Why Eve?
Eve: Because I'm starting over.
Nick: Do you really think it's that easy?
Eve: It wasn't easy.
Nick: You want to know what isn't easy? Knowing that you set me up... and that you set up my mother. What, are you gonna pretend like you don't remember?
Eve: I remember everything. I would have killed you.
Nick: Well, the night is young.
Then again at the HW compound:
Quote:Nick: Do you feel remorse for anything you've done?
Eve: You mean what she did.
Nick: What you did.
Eve: You still think you're talking to Juliette.
Nick: I don't know who I'm talking to.
Eve: Yes, you do. You just won't accept it.
Nick: Maybe I can't.
Eve: If we're gonna work together, you have to stop living in your past.
Nick: What do you mean, "work together"?
Eve: You're here for a reason. My only regret is that you didn't have a chance to bury Juliette.
Then Trubel talks to FrankenEve:
Quote:Eve: Yes?Note how many phrases contain "kill." It would have been helpful for FrankenEve to speak about how she, Kenneth and the thugs had planned to kill Kelly. Perhaps she will come clean, but she is not woman enough to be truthful.
Trubel: [She goes into Eve's room] It's time to set a couple things straight.
Eve: What?
Trubel: That last night at Nick's house, I wasn't trying to kill you. You know that.
Eve: You're talking about Juliette.
Trubel: Yeah.
Eve: I know you weren't trying to kill her.
Trubel: I mean, I wasn't, but I would have.
Eve: She was trying to kill Nick. I would expect that from you.
Trubel: Yeah, I need to know how you feel about Nick and Adalind and their kid.
Eve: Juliette is dead.
Trubel: I know she's dead. I'm asking you if you'd ever hurt them.
Eve: I wouldn't. I don't owe Juliette anything.
Trubel: But I do. Okay, she helped me.
Eve: She would have killed you too.
Trubel: Glad we talked.
New Guy
RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-08-2016
(03-08-2016, 04:36 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:32 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:26 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:17 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-08-2016, 02:09 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: Look, I know you and I will never agree on this. But aiding and abetting makes the person who did it just as guilty as the person who "pulls the trigger" or whatever. That is the maxim in both morality and the law.
Juliette lured Kelly in to be murdered. She also provided information to aide and abet the murder of several of her neighbors and this nonsense about "she didn't know they were going to be murdered" is absolute bull. What did she think the werrat were going to do? Throw everyone a surprise block party?
She lied about it to Nick because HW wants and needs him to work with them. Pretty straight forward really.
The only thing Juliette is guilty of in this case is betraying Kelly. You can say she's full of bull until the cows come home but the fact remains, you have no proof she knew Kelly was going to be murdered.
Question: What else could she have possibly thought that the werrat were going to do?
So you're asking her to read minds now, is that it? And aside for that, I keep reading comments that Juliette never understood Nick's world. So you tell me, if the woman didn't understand his world, what would she have thought the verrat were going to do? Would she have even known what verrat were?
OK, now that doesn't even make sense. The character of Juliette knew what the werrat were since S2, Episode 22 when they tried to kidnap Nick.
Okay, so she knows what they are. How does that make her an expert on Nick's world? Because according to posts not so long ago, Juliette didn't have a clue. If she didn't have a clue, how can you say she deliberately set out to murder Kelly?
Also, for all of your suppositions there's still the fact that Juliette is innocent until *proven* guilty. She hasn't been proven guilty. I haven't seen any conclusive proof, only a bunch of suppositions.
RE: Diana - syscrash - 03-08-2016
Quote:Question: What else could she have possibly thought that the werrat were going to do?
Even based on the last three season, beat up Kelly and take Diana. or capture Kelly. What show kill the target instead of taking them to the boss. For the long dialog about how much trouble they case and how they will be punished.
The post seem to indicate because they had guns would would you expect. They did not even use the guns, which is the same as every other event. In this shows guns are not used. When present they are used as intimidation. You can count on one hand the number of people shot.
The bull on she didn't know. That was a statement the show was making to establish a frame of mind.
Quote:But aiding and abetting makes the person who did it just as guilty as the person who "pulls the trigger" or whatever. That is the maxim in both morality and the law.
Aiding and abetting is the cornerstone of the show. Everyone has aided in if not death but subverting the law. Why is Juliette the only one that all of a sudden the spawn of satin.
You want to talk Aiding and abetting one word wesenrein. They where not a threat to Nick. He was not there as a cop to arrest them. In fact he came right out and side some of you will be stupid. Nick was there as a vigilante. No matter how it may seem a heroic act. It will get you thrown in jail.
That you use real life logic to demonize one character but rationalize it is fiction to absolve others is your prejudicial bias for a character.
New Guy are you really trying to use Nicks statement of what he thought to prove what Juliette knew. That is like trying to tell someone how they should feel. There where a number of conversation about the plan. I notice you never include any of those to prove what she knows. Oh that right they never once mentioned the word KILL. The zombie attack was the only time the word varette has ever been mentioned around Juliette. Even then they did not KILL anybody. Juliette has been on a number rescue missions with Nick other then wesenrein they Never killed anybody. Based on what the Juliette character did know, has been involved in. Please name the point when she should have known. Someone else opinion is not proof. Even in the Restaurant he accused her of setting him up at the factory. We know she save them and had nothing to do with the attack. Yet you pick the part you think supports you position.
RE: Diana - jsgrimm45 - 03-08-2016
We can agree to disagree on what Juliette expected to happen in getting Diana. The setup Nick was talking about was the house not the factory. The setup with his mother's head. On that there is no question Juliette was setting right there when Kenneth was told that Nick wasn't alone and he said he didn't care kill them all. So she knew Nick life was in danger. They had Diana so now Juliette knows Kelly is dead and Nick is about to be killed at least at that point. She can't say she didn't know that.
How Diana fits into that point is mute because she in the car.
RE: Diana - syscrash - 03-08-2016
When talking to Hank they came to the conclusion that Juliette know about the factory and had set them up. That is the only conversation about Nick being setup. A conversation just before the Eve meet. The shows clarification of the up coming conversation. In the car, the orders to kill Nick was the first and only time the word kill was used in any of the conversation. In the car was after the fact. Again picking and choosing events to fit a narrative. The show said for a fact "I DID NOT KNOW" that was said as a fact. She had no reason to make an excuse. The denial is as bad as the denial that neither Juliette or Adalind can be anything other then hexnebiest. Even now there is the speculation that Adalind and Rosalee will find a solution. Regardless that a cure would kill the primes they built up to. Why do you think the writers where so adamant about taking Grimm blood off the table.
FYI Grimm is a very very very simple show. no hidden meaning, no plot twist. The show makes the narratives as plan as can be.
RE: Diana - irukandji - 03-08-2016
The conclusion I see in all of this is there is never going to be proof that Juliette premeditated and carried out Kelly's murder and then later lied about it to Nick.
As for Diana, I got the impression she could care less if Kelly was dead. She was asking where her mommy was, which I interpret as Adalind.
It makes me wonder who told Diana she was going to Nick's to see her mommy. Kelly perhaps? And why?
RE: Diana - Rotkäppchen - 03-09-2016
the "new" Diana
![[Image: Cd_D_Lc_XXIAEP3_CW.jpg]](http://s16.postimg.org/fa3j0mcsh/Cd_D_Lc_XXIAEP3_CW.jpg)
RE: Diana - New Guy - 03-09-2016
(03-08-2016, 06:09 PM)irukandji Wrote: The conclusion I see in all of this is there is never going to be proof that Juliette premeditated and carried out Kelly's murder and then later lied about it to Nick.Hi Irukandji,
As for Diana, I got the impression she could care less if Kelly was dead. She was asking where her mommy was, which I interpret as Adalind.
It makes me wonder who told Diana she was going to Nick's to see her mommy. Kelly perhaps? And why?
The writers left a big hole:
Quote:proof that Juliette premeditated and carried out Kelly's murderHexenette did kill in the Wesenrein episode. She attempted to murder Adalind and Monroe.
We do know for certain Kenneth got Hexenette on board to complete a mission. Hexenette agreed to betray Kelly, lie about Nick's danger, and lure her to the house. The planning of the mission occurred in the hotel. Hexenette participated in those plans. The mission included the abduction of Diana.
For Hexenette to not know Kenneth's mission included the murder Kelly I see three possibilities:
1. Kenneth forgot about Kelly and just murdered her "on the fly" then decapitated her.
2. Kenneth made Hexenette leave the room while Kenneth and his Verrat thugs planned the murder.
3. Hexenette is a total imbecile.
None of these is plausible. FrankenEve remembers everything, so she needs to explain how she "didn't know." Lacking such an explanation Nick will continue to know Hexenette intentionally betrayed his Mother Kelly Burkhardt to her brutal murder and decapitation, and so shall I.
New Guy