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+---- Thread: S4E22 - Cry Havoc (/Thread-S4E22-Cry-Havoc)
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - jsgrimm45 - 06-23-2015
(06-23-2015, 10:22 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:Good point a normal cop arrests a wesen without knowing they are wesen. Nick as a Grimm they know he is a Grimm and they react to the Grimm more than the cop, thinking he's old school Grimm, so instead of just giving up they fight. Good point(06-23-2015, 10:10 AM)irukandji Wrote:(06-23-2015, 09:57 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Beisdes that, I remember there was an episode where wesens robbing bank... Nick followed the procedure...as far as I remember... because in that case the wesen characterist didn't enter in the equacion... In this same episode, Sean informed the council that killed the criminals inside the prision. No Nick involved in this killing... Here is another point... in grimm we have the system law... and the council law... Nick always goes against the council trying to get with the system law... Jones doens't have do deal with the council... so.... their context is different...
And again, I pose the same question to you as to jsgrimm. In the four years that Grimm has been on, how many wesen has Nick killed?
I don't know... But all the wesens killed were just criminals from the cases nick was investigating??? What about the verrats??? and the royals sent ones???
(06-23-2015, 10:10 AM)irukandji Wrote: Adriano, you didn't understand. My detective was a fictional character, one I just made up. I was merely saying that it would be impossible for Nick to be the only detective going after criminal wesen.
But let me pose this question to you. Shouldn't information be based on the crime rather than the perpetrator? The fake detective I made up had exactly the same information Nick had. What you're saying is because Nick could see that the criminal was wesen, he feels he has the right to kill the wesen.
I undesrtood... And for me you are being unfair with Nick...
First... I don't see nick killing wesens just because they are wesens... Here you are having a diferent interpretation then I am having... And we have one exemple that your fictional detective would put in prison someone Nick let free: the frog girl... Nick dedided she was inocent because she didn't have control of her body speling poison. Your detective would have the case unsolved because he didn't have all informations... or... he would send the girl to the prison...
Did nick killed that girl just because she was wesen??? If Nick kills all wesens as you said, he would simply have killed the girl. But he went to Rosalee and tried to understand what happens to her.
Other point you are not considering... Your detective Jones will see a wesen criminal and nothing happens... Nick see a wesen and the wesen see in Nicks eyes he is a grimm.... Many atack... many run... All the times Nick tryes to calm the wesen down and show he is there as policeman. Jones doens't have the same problem...
Other points in the context...
Nick fights the royals and the ones sent by them to kill him... Jones doesn't...
Nick fights wesen sent specifically to kill him... Jones doesn't...
Jones and Nick simply live in diferent contexts... Compare one to the other (and the amount of wesens they killed) is simply unfair with both...
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-23-2015
(06-23-2015, 11:28 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good point a normal cop arrests a wesen without knowing they are wesen. Nick as a Grimm they know he is a Grimm and they react to the Grimm more than the cop, thinking he's old school Grimm, so instead of just giving up they fight. Good point
That is my point... this must be considered. This is the context where they live.
(06-23-2015, 10:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: First of all, she'd go to jail, not necessarily prison. They are two separate things.
This two words looked the same to me. English is not my native language so this forum is usefful for me to learning more about English... Thank you for the info.
(06-23-2015, 10:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: Secondly, she's being treated no differently than a person who, say accidentally kills someone with their car.
For the girl to be treated as some that kill by accident.... the system would have the info about her wesen condition... That is not the case... What would appear for the system is that she killed twos man. One is accident... But Two??? They could have used the self defense argue, what I believe is more close to the scenario... But this is another debate.
(06-23-2015, 10:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: What you're saying here is that this girl, because she is a wesen and the deaths were accidental, she is above the law.My intention is not to judge the girl. I used this sample to demonstrate that nick doesn't simply kill every wesen that came up in front of him. He tries to understand the context of that wesen prior to take a decision.
And if you really want to argue the point here, the same girl decided against a wesen procedure developed by her own kind so they wouldn't accidentally poison someone.
If we are going to judge the girl, maybe Nicks way of acting was not the most correctly one. But I see he tring do right thing... He is not perfect... no one is... there are mistakes... But nick lives in a context where he is forced to take this kind of decisions.
Aunt Marie told Nick something like to protect the god wesens... and punish the bad wesens... Grimm is about it... this is the show context... Nick HAS to decide who is good and who is bad.
(06-23-2015, 10:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: You said earlier Nick has more information than the average detective. It sounds like this information that he has is not beneficial to either him or the wesen.
If we look at the bigger picture... Nick has this informations because he is a grimm... Being a grimm ended up in all the Juliette plot. Do you think it is beneficial do Nick being a grimm?
(06-23-2015, 10:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: Not trying to be offensive here, believe me. But it wasn't so long ago you yourself proposed a fake scenario where Juliette lived and had to earn Monroe and Rosalee's friendship. The forum is full of lots of 'what if's". And this isn't exactly a "what if". Wu was the one who questioned it in the first place.
You are not being offensive... If any time I appeared to be offensive, please forgive me... This is not my intension never. Some times just typing is a hard to express exactly the idea we want.
About the "what if" thing... I belive that right and wrong are not relative... But people decisions are... because decisions are based on interpretation of realiaty (in this case, the reality inside the show)... Interpretation is based in meaning... Meaning depends completly on the context... I believe that judge a person decision, like we are doing with Nicks actions, without see the context is a bad way to judge actions and decisions.
As I like to use fake scenarios... Imagine that Nick simply follow the procedure... let's take the frog girl as an exemple.
He could simply wash his hands, give her to the system and not think about it. He would have no responsability on the system decision. But he knows the gril can't control her body... So he would be a coward not acting according to what he thinks is right.
He could send her to the system, but sending manipulate information to demonstrate that the girl was protecting herself or something like that. He would be someone that uses the system just to officialize his previous judgemente. Also not correct.
He could send her to the council and let the council decide... But whose procedures should Nick follow, the law system or the wesen council?
He assumes the responsability of knowing and decide based on that. His decisions sometimes are not the best... But he is not hiding himself from the responsability.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - irukandji - 06-23-2015
When I first watched Grimm, I got the impression that Nick was a good man, with heart and integrity, despite the problems he was dealing with. Shortly after, his aunt comes bounding into town with her trailer. She tells him he’s a Grimm, one of the last of his kind, and among other things, tells him about wesen and that he *has* to decide who is a good wesen and who is a bad wesen. Just to clarify, I couldn’t recall her telling him this, so am basing it on what you said.
Nick swore an oath to uphold the law before he took office. The oath would have forbid him to use his own discretion in deciding who is guilty and who is innocent. That responsibility rests with the people. Nick’s an intelligent man. None of this would have been incomprehensible to him.
So back to the frog girl. She killed two people. I can’t say what happened to the first guy, we never see the events immediately preceding his death. If I recall correctly, only the audience sees the second killing and it is clearly self-defense. But (and correct me if I’m wrong here), Nick and Hank are not witnesses to the crime, so they only have the girl’s word on this.
You talk about responsibility and decision making. What would have been the best course for Nick to take here? Should he have kept his oath and enforced the law according to said oath? Or should he have looked the pretty blonde girl over, *thought* she was good, *thought* she was telling the truth, and looked for a way to free her?
We all know what he did and in my opinion, it was the wrong thing to do. Yes, it’s great, she gets a boyfriend and a tattoo that enables her to be human and everyone dances off into the sunset. But what would have happened if did the right thing and placed her in the system? You say the system would have known about her wesen condition then. Okay, so what? I don’t recall that the whole wesen issue was some closely guarded secret.
I have read comments on the forum that Nick is some new and different kind of wesen but I’m not sure why. Turning that girl in would have been the first step in something new and different. I’m not talking CSI here, but a storyline where the people learn she is a wesen, declare her innocence and in the process, a first major step is taken.
Instead, Nick went down the dark path. He compromised his goodness and his integrity for his own benefit. And that's okay. This is Grimm and he's not supposed to be a knight in shining armor. But, going back to my original argument, if Juliette comes back, she should not have to do penance to Nick for betraying his mother. Both of them wronged for their own benefit. Just because his mother was involved doesn't make Juliette's betrayal any worse than Nick's actions.
This of course, as always, is my own opinion. Not fact.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-23-2015
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: When I first watched Grimm, I got the impression that Nick was a good man, with heart and integrity, despite the problems he was dealing with.
I agree with you in that. But I also saw Nicks changing during the show. First season he was more taking criminals to the system. Now he is more deciding to himself.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: Shortly after, his aunt comes bounding into town with her trailer. She tells him he’s a Grimm, one of the last of his kind, and among other things, tells him about wesen and that he *has* to decide who is a good wesen and who is a bad wesen. Just to clarify, I couldn’t recall her telling him this, so am basing it on what you said.
I remember that aunt Marie saying this. I may be wrong, my memoriy is not that good.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: Nick swore an oath to uphold the law before he took office. The oath would have forbid him to use his own discretion in deciding who is guilty and who is innocent. That responsibility rests with the people. Nick’s an intelligent man. None of this would have been incomprehensible to him.My argue here is more about the show. Grimm is about na unknonw world that exists but we don't know it exists. When I say grimm is not a CSI is not because I want it to have DNA tests and this stuf. I am talking about the intention of the show witch means the inside contexto where the show exists. CSI is about scientific proves created to give support to system. Grimm is about a hide world between us. The writers made Nick a policeman. He could be anything else. I see the police stuf in grimm as a background that could be changed... It is not the base of the show. CSI, diferently, is about police and proves and this stuf. Take out the law system and there is no CSI.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: So back to the frog girl. She killed two people. I can’t say what happened to the first guy, we never see the events immediately preceding his death. If I recall correctly, only the audience sees the second killing and it is clearly self-defense. But (and correct me if I’m wrong here), Nick and Hank are not witnesses to the crime, so they only have the girl’s word on this.As far as I remember, Nick and Hank wanted to bring the girl to justice. Rosalee and Monroe that convinced Nick about the girl not being able to control herself about the poison. So, Rosalee judge the girl, not Nick. Nick only believed Rosalee about the characteristcs of that kind of wesen.Nicks decision was based on Rosalees knolodge/word... not the girls one.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: You talk about responsibility and decision making. What would have been the best course for Nick to take here? Should he have kept his oath and enforced the law according to said oath? Or should he have looked the pretty blonde girl over, *thought* she was good, *thought* she was telling the truth, and looked for a way to free her?I am have choose a diferent course of action, but this doesn't mean I consider a bad person for this decision he made... I can understand in what contexto he had to choose.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: We all know what he did and in my opinion, it was the wrong thing to do. Yes, it’s great, she gets a boyfriend and a tattoo that enables her to be human and everyone dances off into the sunset. But what would have happened if did the right thing and placed her in the system? You say the system would have known about her wesen condition then. Okay, so what? I don’t recall that the whole wesen issue was some closely guarded secret.It was said in the show that the wesen council forbids wesens to woge in public because in the past wesens were killed by normal humans that simply didn't understand the wesens. So, you are saing that Nick should take the girl to the system and if it brings to wesen killing it is ok?
I don't know if this would happend... but in the CONTEXT of the show, this is why the council exists... to avoid it. Would Nick take this risk? A normal detective wouldn't know that. But Nick does. Again I use the context argue. Looking just at the gril frog plot, is easy to say send her to the system and tell everyone what a wesen is... But what would be consequencies? Remember.... the council kill wesens that put the society in danger showing themselves in public. That is the context of the show.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: I have read comments on the forum that Nick is some new and different kind of wesen but I’m not sure why. Turning that girl in would have been the first step in something new and different. I’m not talking CSI here, but a storyline where the people learn she is a wesen, declare her innocence and in the process, a first major step is taken.
Explained above why not telling everyone about the wesens.... And Nick being diferent kind of grimm is said in the show... Wesens expect Nick to just kill them. But Nick doesn't.
The CSI thing I have explained also.
(06-23-2015, 07:34 PM)irukandji Wrote: Instead, Nick went down the dark path. He compromised his goodness and his integrity for his own benefit. And that's okay. This is Grimm and he's not supposed to be a knight in shining armor. But, going back to my original argument, if Juliette comes back, she should not have to do penance to Nick for betraying his mother. Both of them wronged for their own benefit. Just because his mother was involved doesn't make Juliette's betrayal any worse than Nick's actions.
This of course, as always, is my own opinion. Not fact.
I was talking just about Nicks action as policeman... Not comparing him with Juliette.
Nicks actions as policeman can't be comparade with his actions with Juliette because they are diferent contexts. And we can't compare Nicks actions to Juliettes actions too.
First, if I was to compare I would put Juliettes actions in the royal war context...Juliette choose Nick's enemy side. There is no betrayal here... Nick was the stupid one for not seeing this before his mother got murdered.
In my opinion, if Juliette comes back, there is no penance for Nick... and there is no penance for Juliette. They both burned all bridges and there is no way back for them. But this is another talk.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - irukandji - 06-24-2015
(06-23-2015, 08:15 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: My argue here is more about the show. Grimm is about na unknonw world that exists but we don't know it exists. When I say grimm is not a CSI is not because I want it to have DNA tests and this stuf. I am talking about the intention of the show witch means the inside contexto where the show exists. CSI is about scientific proves created to give support to system. Grimm is about a hide world between us. The writers made Nick a policeman. He could be anything else. I see the police stuf in grimm as a background that could be changed... It is not the base of the show. CSI, diferently, is about police and proves and this stuf. Take out the law system and there is no CSI.
I understand your argument, but that was not my argument. Mine was about the fact that Nick should have viewed himself as a detective first. His oath should mean something to him, not a nothing that he can break just because *thinks* things should be handled differently.
(06-23-2015, 08:15 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: As far as I remember, Nick and Hank wanted to bring the girl to justice. Rosalee and Monroe that convinced Nick about the girl not being able to control herself about the poison. So, Rosalee judge the girl, not Nick. Nick only believed Rosalee about the characteristcs of that kind of wesen.Nicks decision was based on Rosalees knolodge/word... not the girls one.
Whatever Nick based his decision on was the wrong decision.
(06-23-2015, 08:15 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: It was said in the show that the wesen council forbids wesens to woge in public because in the past wesens were killed by normal humans that simply didn't understand the wesens. So, you are saing that Nick should take the girl to the system and if it brings to wesen killing it is ok?
I don't know if this would happend... but in the CONTEXT of the show, this is why the council exists... to avoid it. Would Nick take this risk? A normal detective wouldn't know that. But Nick does. Again I use the context argue. Looking just at the gril frog plot, is easy to say send her to the system and tell everyone what a wesen is... But what would be consequencies? Remember.... the council kill wesens that put the society in danger showing themselves in public. That is the context of the show.
I'll also look at this in *CONTEXT*. First of all the council has no authority in America. Secondly as the girl is here, not somewhere else, she has to follow the laws. No matter the consequences. Third she had the rules of her own wesen kind that set into place to prevent her from accidentally poisoning her victims. She had choices and disregarded them all. Now all of the sudden Nick wants to change the game because he *feels* she should not follow the system. Is that right? No.
(06-23-2015, 08:15 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Explained above why not telling everyone about the wesens.... And Nick being diferent kind of grimm is said in the show... Wesens expect Nick to just kill them. But Nick doesn't.
The CSI thing I have explained also.
Also explained in my argument above.
(06-23-2015, 08:15 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: I was talking just about Nicks action as policeman... Not comparing him with Juliette.
I was. Before you came into the argument, the debate was about Juliette. I wanted to tie her back into my argument.
Quote:Nicks actions as policeman can't be comparade with his actions with Juliette because they are diferent contexts. And we can't compare Nicks actions to Juliettes actions too.
Again, my rationale for bringing her in this is above. And, as always this is my opinion.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 05:19 AM)irukandji Wrote: I was. Before you came into the argument, the debate was about Juliette. I wanted to tie her back into my argument.
I understand. Please forgive me for deviate from the original argument. I was just tring to give new elements to the debate.
So, let me start again following your logic. No CONTEXT, no "what if" and no interpretation... Just analyzing the facts.
(06-24-2015, 05:19 AM)irukandji Wrote: Mine was about the fact that Nick should have viewed himself as a detective first. His oath should mean something to him, not a nothing that he can break just because *thinks* things should be handled differently.
I understand and agree that Nick is a detective and should act as one, doesn't matter if he has any special knowlodge or power comparing the others. If he doesn't feel able to be a correct policeman and a grimm at the same time, leave the corporation. His obrigation is with the society with he make a promise to follow the law and the procedures.
As Nick doesn't follow the rules, he is a corrupt policeman. Doesn't matter if he broke the rules many times or just one. In this case, he is a criminal and should be judge by the times he broke the procedures. I don't know how things happend in USA, but where I live there is a special tribunal for cops.
Looking at Juliette plot, she worked for an organization from out of america and while doing this work she was responsable or accomplice for committing the following crimes on American soil:
- disturbing the peace in the neighborhood
- deaths of American citizens in their own homes
- kidnapping of a child
- I don't know in USA, but in Brazil she would be judge for international child abduction, since Diana was being taking out of the country without the permition of her mother, Adelaind, neighter her father Sean.
- maybe someone can remember more...
The right thing to happen would be Juliette be judge for those crimes. Also, Sean be judged for:
- the killings of the Jack.
- He also killed a member of his family in a past episode - unfortunatly no prove against him hear inside the show
- Was in collusion with the Wesson who ran the fight club - again, unfortunatly no prove against him hear inside the show
- Many other things that I don't remenber now.
Nick and Hank should be judged for the things we have alread discussed.
But in the judgement of Nick and Hank, Monroe and Rosalee (and Julietee) were accomplices in many of their crimes. They must be judge in those one too.
There is no saint in grimm and all of them are criminals. And taking what the writers aparently intend to do, Nick will became even more criminal, if it is possible to messure "more criminal" or "less criminal".
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - izzy - 06-27-2015
I have brought up this general tenor in other threads. I fully agree that Nick, Renard and company are criminals and should be held accountable for their actions.
As I mentioned I know a lot of LEOs , you get to know both sides of issues. In a nutshell it is a tough job but the compensation relative to the skill needed to perform and the market supply richly rewards them for their service. They should be held accountable, ad I think you could argue be held to a higher standard.
What you have in this show is the rough equivalent of what went on in Chicago some years ago with coerced confessions,beatings etc(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge). This is a U.S. based show, and in this country, right now, we have an epidemic of lawless behavior on the part of elected and appointed officials as well as those who are suppose to serve locally
I must admit, I enjoy this series, the fantasy aspect, but a fit ending would be a internal or internal/external investigation where Nick and Renard are brought to justice and perhaps one is sentenced to prison. losses his pension etc and the other commits suicide.
.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - Encyclia - 09-08-2015
The episode was awesome as all Grimm episodes are.
But I feel that it is extremely cruel to kill Kelly. Like she's just been in the spotlight for some time and she just shows up and get slaughtered. Where's the guilty conscience in Juliette???
Meisner's appearance on the plane was so damn awesome! To think that the resistance had a back up plan all along in case the kid gets stolen!!
Then again, I really got confused about the appearance of Chavez at end. Sure we all recognised her as the FBI agent. The question is, is she there to capture Trubel to kill her or something? Or is she there to take care of Juliette? Who is that "her"? And why would they show up with an "army" of people? That must sure mean that they have a big job to accomplish with certain level of difficulty...?
This really confuses me..
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - TieDyeJackson - 09-08-2015
(09-08-2015, 10:50 AM)Encyclia Wrote: The episode was awesome as all Grimm episodes are.
But I feel that it is extremely cruel to kill Kelly. Like she's just been in the spotlight for some time and she just shows up and get slaughtered. Where's the guilty conscience in Juliette???
Meisner's appearance on the plane was so damn awesome! To think that the resistance had a back up plan all along in case the kid gets stolen!!
Then again, I really got confused about the appearance of Chavez at end. Sure we all recognised her as the FBI agent. The question is, is she there to capture Trubel to kill her or something? Or is she there to take care of Juliette? Who is that "her"? And why would they show up with an "army" of people? That must sure mean that they have a big job to accomplish with certain level of difficulty...?
This really confuses me..
I really think the Chavez scene was just extremely vague on purpose to give it a cliffhanger. A big chapter ended but they needed people to be like WTF is going on so they tacked it on to the end.
The actress that played Kelly was "done" with the series so it was just a means to an end and a way to villainize Juliette even more.
RE: S4E22 - Cry Havoc - Gretel Hanselsister - 09-08-2015
(09-08-2015, 10:50 AM)Encyclia Wrote: Then again, I really got confused about the appearance of Chavez at end. Sure we all recognised her as the FBI agent. The question is, is she there to capture Trubel to kill her or something? Or is she there to take care of Juliette? Who is that "her"? And why would they show up with an "army" of people? That must sure mean that they have a big job to accomplish with certain level of difficulty...?
This really confuses me..
Welcome to the forum!
There's more then one Chavez-scene in this episode that confuses me.
Chavez calls Trubel in the middle of the episode when Trubel is driving with Bud to Monroe and Rosalee. Trubel doesn’t want to take the call, Bud tells her to get it, it might be Nick calling her. Then Trubel pretends to speak to Nick, but there’s Chavez on the line, saying “We need to talk” and “I’ll be in touch”. This doesn’t make any sense to me.
Does Trubel work for Chavez? Then she would probably hide this from Nick, and Bud too, he’s a blabbermouth. But why would Chavez want to kidnap her at the end of the episode?
Does Trubel still run from Chavez? Maybe she’s hiding this from Nick and his friends because they already have enough problems to deal with. But how would Chavez know Trubels cell phone number? If Chavez wants Trubel so badly, she could have caught her in Philadelphia, too. She’s FBI after all.