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+--- Thread: Juliette as a hexienbiest (/Thread-Juliette-as-a-hexienbiest)
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Nibbio - 03-27-2015
(03-24-2015, 12:55 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: @ busyizzy
Not disagreeing with what you have said. I have internally debated Sean so I have one thing to say about him... He views himself, not Nick, as the leader of the group. Leaders seldom tell their subordinates more than they need to know to do their jobs. This is not saying that he is good or evil at this point the evidence is not there to support either argument. It is just his justification for not telling anyone anything.
As far as the coins go remember their influence brings out the bad in everyone... even Hank who we are sure is good and likes to help people acted the bad cop under their influence.
Somehow i tend to disagree, i dont view him as being that much in charge.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Samsarilian - 03-27-2015
(03-27-2015, 03:53 AM)Nibbio Wrote:He views himself, not Nick, as the leader of the group.(03-24-2015, 12:55 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: @ busyizzy
Not disagreeing with what you have said. I have internally debated Sean so I have one thing to say about him... He views himself, not Nick, as the leader of the group. Leaders seldom tell their subordinates more than they need to know to do their jobs. This is not saying that he is good or evil at this point the evidence is not there to support either argument. It is just his justification for not telling anyone anything.
As far as the coins go remember their influence brings out the bad in everyone... even Hank who we are sure is good and likes to help people acted the bad cop under their influence.
Somehow i tend to disagree, i dont view him as being that much in charge.
I never said he was... but he is more than Nick in a lot of ways. As a Cop he can change Nicks assignment without so much as a explanation why. He calls people to make arrangements and someone dies. He views himself as if he is in charge and he acts it. He does not explain himself often, I only recall him coming close once and that was when he gave Nick back the key.
He knows what he wants to happen, he has the means and the will to make it happen or die trying. Even if he does have to be careful near other Nobles. Only a stupid man tells the King I am going to collapse your kingdom before he has insured its destruction.
I am not sure what you would call being in charge or in control but that is what most people would consider it to be.
Now whether or not the Scooby gang will follow Nick or Sean is not what I have talked about in this post. I believe the gang would follow Nick. But that does not change that Sean sees himself as the leader. He has not really taken into account the number of times Nick has circumvented him or flat out disobeyed his orders.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-27-2015
(03-27-2015, 06:27 AM)Samsarilian Wrote:(03-27-2015, 03:53 AM)Nibbio Wrote:He views himself, not Nick, as the leader of the group.(03-24-2015, 12:55 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: @ busyizzy
Not disagreeing with what you have said. I have internally debated Sean so I have one thing to say about him... He views himself, not Nick, as the leader of the group. Leaders seldom tell their subordinates more than they need to know to do their jobs. This is not saying that he is good or evil at this point the evidence is not there to support either argument. It is just his justification for not telling anyone anything.
As far as the coins go remember their influence brings out the bad in everyone... even Hank who we are sure is good and likes to help people acted the bad cop under their influence.
Somehow i tend to disagree, i dont view him as being that much in charge.
I never said he was... but he is more than Nick in a lot of ways. As a Cop he can change Nicks assignment without so much as a explanation why. He calls people to make arrangements and someone dies. He views himself as if he is in charge and he acts it. He does not explain himself often, I only recall him coming close once and that was when he gave Nick back the key.
He knows what he wants to happen, he has the means and the will to make it happen or die trying. Even if he does have to be careful near other Nobles. Only a stupid man tells the King I am going to collapse your kingdom before he has insured its destruction.
I am not sure what you would call being in charge or in control but that is what most people would consider it to be.
Now whether or not the Scooby gang will follow Nick or Sean is not what I have talked about in this post. I believe the gang would follow Nick. But that does not change that Sean sees himself as the leader. He has not really taken into account the number of times Nick has circumvented him or flat out disobeyed his orders.
Samsarilian, I agree with you. Maybe the point is not been a leader like the one everybody will follow in free will. I belieave. Sean knows Nick would not foloow Sean's desire in the fight agains the royals just because Sean is the leader. That's why he gave back the key to Nick. Sean also knows the group will folow Nick when and if they have to decide between Sean and Nick. Sean knows he needs an aliance with nick where Nicks beliave this is between equals. But Sean beleaves his is the leaders because he beleaves he is the strategist of the group. The one who knows how to influence Nick does what Sean wants and beleave he is doing hes own will.
I mean, Sean sees himself as the leader because he beleaves he can influence the others with the tools he has at hand. Looking back all the show, he had manipulated everybody in so many ways that actually he maybe right.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - syscrash - 03-27-2015
Even though Nick runs the investigations it is under the direction of Sean. We have seen Sean has a connection with Monroe and Rosalee outside of Nick. So Sean could work with the group without Nick. Except the group needs a Grimm to do what they do.
There have been two times when Sean and Nick faced off. The first was in face off. Even though Sean seemed to submit to Nick and give him the key. Sean was actually the one in charge because Nick had no idea about the big picture and the Royals plans. Sean needed some place safe to hide the key and Nick was it. The second time was in the apartment when they were in the hall. That time it was more a draw. As it turned out Kelly was and ran that operation. Even though Sean designed it. Because he knew what Viktor would and would not do.
Outside of police work Nick is not a soldier under Sean command like Adalind. But he is a very valuable asset. Plus Sean has intrusted Nick with the key. For this reason he needs to keep Nick on his side. Sean siding with Juilette over Nick would not go well for the insurance of Sean having control of the key. Now Sean if faced with Nick having the key, or does he want a pissed of hexenbiest (Juliette). The one thing you never want to do is piss off a hexenbiest. You piss off a hexenbiest you can bet you are going to have a bad day.
I could see Sean siding with Juliette, have her get the key and Sean would then dump Nick. I could see Nick still works cases with Hank and Wu. But Sean no longer has his back and has sided with Juliette who has recovered the key.
Where it looks like Juliette is going to be the out cast. We might end up with Nick being the out cast. Remember when it comes to the Royals and the Varat hank and wu are of no use. Monroe and Rosalee are not going to get in the center of that fight. Maybe that is why Kelly and Truble are returning . To give Nick backup against the Royals. After Sean abandons Nick to side with Juliette. I could hear Kelly now. "I told you, you couldn't trust him". This could really turn into three hexenbiest against three Grimms.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Samsarilian - 03-27-2015
(03-27-2015, 11:51 AM)syscrash Wrote: Even though Nick runs the investigations it is under the direction of Sean. We have seen Sean has a connection with Monroe and Rosalee outside of Nick. So Sean could work with the group without Nick. Except the group needs a Grimm to do what they do.
There have been two times when Sean and Nick faced off. The first was in face off. Even though Sean seemed to submit to Nick and give him the key. Sean was actually the one in charge because Nick had no idea about the big picture and the Royals plans. Sean needed some place safe to hide the key and Nick was it. The second time was in the apartment when they were in the hall. That time it was more a draw. As it turned out Kelly was and ran that operation. Even though Sean designed it. Because he knew what Viktor would and would not do.
Outside of police work Nick is not a soldier under Sean command like Adalind. But he is a very valuable asset. Plus Sean has intrusted Nick with the key. For this reason he needs to keep Nick on his side. Sean siding with Juilette over Nick would not go well for the insurance of Sean having control of the key. Now Sean if faced with Nick having the key, or does he want a pissed of hexenbiest (Juliette). The one thing you never want to do is piss off a hexenbiest. You piss off a hexenbiest you can bet you are going to have a bad day.
I could see Sean siding with Juliette, have her get the key and Sean would then dump Nick. I could see Nick still works cases with Hank and Wu. But Sean no longer has his back and has sided with Juliette who has recovered the key.
Where it looks like Juliette is going to be the out cast. We might end up with Nick being the out cast. Remember when it comes to the Royals and the Varat hank and wu are of no use. Monroe and Rosalee are not going to get in the center of that fight. Maybe that is why Kelly and Truble are returning . To give Nick backup against the Royals. After Sean abandons Nick to side with Juliette. I could hear Kelly now. "I told you, you couldn't trust him". This could really turn into three hexenbiest against three Grimms.
I would not say this is ENTIRELY wrong. What I would say is if Sean goes this route he has forgotten:
1) it was not him who initially intrusted the key to Nick
2) Nick is a Grimm
3) He is a Zauberbiest who has bought a little trust
4) Nick looses the key He looses the trust it bought
5) I do not think I need to add what a pissed off Grimm will do to the Zauber that betrayed him.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-27-2015
(03-27-2015, 03:32 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: I would not say this is ENTIRELY wrong. What I would say is if Sean goes this route he has forgotten:
1) it was not him who initially intrusted the key to Nick
2) Nick is a Grimm
3) He is a Zauberbiest who has bought a little trust
4) Nick looses the key He looses the trust it bought
5) I do not think I need to add what a pissed off Grimm will do to the Zauber that betrayed him.
If my memories serve me well, when Sean asked his mom to help Nick to be a grimm again was because Nick was one of the reasons the resiatence was his alie which means that if Sean choose this path whould be choosen be fighting against the royals, problably the resiatence and certanly against the grimms.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - grimmfreak - 04-03-2015
Hey, I have to say that while I initially had high hopes for this change it seems to me that the writers are continuing to fail to make Juliette anything more than a tool in their hands to develop Nicks character and have not given her any life of her own. Even now that they have hit on an interesting course for Juliette they still have focused more on how Nick is dealing with the whole thing more than on how she herself is. We have still yet to meet (in a significant way) anyone in Juliette's life outside Nicks world (parents, siblings, friends) so that she can have alternate loyalties. If she does anything different now it seems they are going to make her do things against nick, which only serves to make her more centered on Nick. I am going back to my previous stance, until I see something change... my hope is she is gone before seasons end, I don't even care how they do it anymore, kill her off, have her leave nick and never be seen again, whatever.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - Samsarilian - 04-03-2015
(04-03-2015, 10:30 AM)grimmfreak Wrote: Hey, I have to say that while I initially had high hopes for this change it seems to me that the writers are continuing to fail to make Juliette anything more than a tool in their hands to develop Nicks character and have not given her any life of her own. Even now that they have hit on an interesting course for Juliette they still have focused more on how Nick is dealing with the whole thing more than on how she herself is. We have still yet to meet (in a significant way) anyone in Juliette's life outside Nicks world (parents, siblings, friends) so that she can have alternate loyalties. If she does anything different now it seems they are going to make her do things against nick, which only serves to make her more centered on Nick. I am going back to my previous stance, until I see something change... my hope is she is gone before seasons end, I don't even care how they do it anymore, kill her off, have her leave nick and never be seen again, whatever.
She was raised according to an earlier show in the middle of the country not anywhere near the Pacific North West. If you are not an American this might not mean much but you are talking about a 1500 mile, 2 to 3 day car trip more if you get more than 2 hours sleep at a time and/or obey speed laws. Non Americans or even Americans who do not travel really do not realize how large this country is. So family is unlikely to show up in her life without some notice, they will want to make sure she has time to spend with them. I have not seen my nieces since they moved to Kentucky with their men. It is where my nephew in laws are from. One of those boys made the solo drive to Ca in 30 hours, no sleep, and total disregard for speed laws. He promised us and the girl never to do that again. The return trip with the girl took about 72 hours, 8 hours sleep in hotels and a little sight seeing, stopping to stretch their legs on the way. That was 3 and a half years ago and I am not likely to see the two girls again unless I go visiting not only them but my cousins back there. You rarely plan such a trip to visit just one or two people though they may be the main reason for the trip you always try to get the most for the money and effort spent.
All that said she does have work related friends and co workers that could be introduced. They have hinted as much but you are right. They were not given real characters they were treated as walk-ons.
As for her leaving why? Hank is no more developed. The only love interests they have given him have been to further a WoW or push Nick to fight Adalind. You have not seen him developed. He has no friends who do not work in the squad room. We see the same thing in Wu. He has no friends outside the Scooby gang. Should we start saying they are useless and should go? The most developed characters outside Nick on the show are Monroe and Rosalie. Yet, I do not see the show working with only them, Sean and Nick.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - OtterMommy - 04-03-2015
(04-03-2015, 03:45 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: She was raised according to an earlier show in the middle of the country not anywhere near the Pacific North West.
Out of curiosity, do you remember when this is mentioned? I've rewatched the series looking for details like this, but I never caught this one (which is not to say it wasn't there....)
And, to put the quote in context here, we're talking about Juliette.
RE: Juliette as a hexienbiest - grimmfreak - 04-03-2015
While it is true that Hank is underdeveloped he, IMO, is more developed than Juliette in that he at least has his oath as an officer of the law to take into consideration. Juliette is a Veterinarian but the writers have only used this when it's convenient to existing plot elements. If they pitted her against Nick where ethics were concerned, say she could argue that a certain wesen was only following instinct (I know it's a stretch but they've gone further out on other limbs) and thus should be dealt with more humanely than Nick might otherwise do.
As for the travel time, I get it, I'm American yes, but we have hardly, if at all, had mention of her parents or family of any kind, other than to hear about her grandmother raising her, Perhaps her parents are no longer with us but then why not use that as another event influencing her life... The writer could use that as a reason for her to take a particular interest in a case where a child is facing the loss of a parent(s). Hank at least has mentioned his former wife who was Anthropologist to explain his knowledge of a wesen artifact and has on numerous occasions has used his failed marriages to explain his opinions on other peoples relationships. I can't think of one occasion where Juliette's character has mentioned other people from her past having sway on her at all. In the end Hank is poorly written as well, but less so than Juliette IMO.
end rant... for now, lol.