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+---- Thread: S4E05 - Cry Luison (/Thread-S4E05-Cry-Luison)
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - busyizzy - 11-26-2014
(11-26-2014, 09:40 AM)Elkhound Wrote:(11-25-2014, 03:55 PM)Lou Wrote: I'll give you the burning wooden cross analogy, tho. That's more KKK than Conservative Republicans. And I'll also give you points for the the mixed race and mixed species similarities. So maybe its both?
It has been mentioned before that some of the wesen stereotypes about Fuchbauen are not unlike some of the more unpleasant stereotypes that used to be circulated in Europe and America about Jews. And what famous dictator who had a big problem with Jews do we know was a Blutbad?
Wow...what a great topic. I've watched this episode again because it was REALLY content-rich.
@Elkhound Interesting point about Hitler wogeing as a Blutbad in the video Nick watched. However, I think all references to prejudice above are really the same--racial, ethnic, religious, and LGBT prejudice is all about hate and intolerance. It doesn't really matter what the hate group is called.
@Lou I think I was confused about your saying, "That's more KKK than Conservative Republicans." Pardon me for getting political...but I know that political affiliation doesn't have anything to do with hate. Some of the most liberal countries in the world have the biggest prejudices. Neo-Nazism, ethnic cleansing, and segregation is still going on in many developed and liberal countries. In the US, people hate each other based on what political party they belong to or if they believe in Creationism vs Darwinism, etc. And the hatred and intolerance goes both ways and shows up at the strangest times for weird reasons. I know Republicans who like Obama the man but hate his politics, and I know Democrats who are very liberal on many social issues but hate black people. Quite frankly, I don't get any of it.
What I want to know from the Grimm writers is:
If so many Wesen stay away from one another and if their numbers are fairly small, how are they supposed to find a mate of same Wesenage (made up this word because I don't know if it should be race or species...lol)? Even though Monroe stated there were a few other Blutbads around (remember in first episode, he marked his territory), have any female Blutbads shown up on the show? I can't remember.
If there's no way for them all to communicate and meet (e.g. WesenMatch.com or Wesen Council Matchmaker Service) and they're not "supposed" to pair up with those of other Wesenage, why wouldn't they simply go extinct eventually (and no Grimms needed)? Also, wouldn't humans be considered inappropriate mates as well per the Wesen Council's rules on wogeing in front of humans? After all, humans can't woge (99.999% don't even know about it), the mixed children would have weaker genes and also may not be able to woge, and who knows what would happen if there was a divorce...the human would probably almost always end up in a sanitarium.
I also think the producers of the show intend for this theme of "hate" against certain couples to be more generic because it DOES cover so many diverse couple experiences.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - Lou - 11-26-2014
(11-26-2014, 01:58 PM)busyizzy Wrote: @Lou I think I was confused about your saying, "That's more KKK than Conservative Republicans."
I was just referencing that most of the anti-same sex marriage stuff comes from conservative republicans. I don't believe i need to provide references - I think there is a ton of evidence of this. Just ask a conservative republican
Quote:What I want to know from the Grimm writers is:
If so many Wesen stay away from one another and if their numbers are fairly small, how are they supposed to find a mate of same Wesenage (made up this word because I don't know if it should be race or species...lol)? Even though Monroe stated there were a few other Blutbads around (remember in first episode, he marked his territory), have any female Blutbads shown up on the show? I can't remember.
I think this point of confusion has something to do with the writers not having a clear course set at the beginning of season 1. A point i just made to you in a different thread.
Since Monroe made those statements they have been contradicted many times. In the "Dish Served Cold" episode, Monroe got a whole bunch of Blutbads together on short notice.
and in the "Three Bad Wolves" episode, we find that Monroe has a bunch of Blutbad friends and even a former Blurbed girlfriend.
And in the Bigfeet episode we find that Monroe has friends of other species and even a Wesson support group.
Quote:If there's no way for them all to communicate and meet (e.g. WesenMatch.com or Wesen Council Matchmaker Service) and they're not "supposed" to pair up with those of other Wesenage, why wouldn't they simply go extinct eventually (and no Grimms needed)?
Yeah, as it turns out there are plenty of places to meet. We have seen on Grimm, Wesson bars, Wesson congregations and of course Wesson weddings.
Quote:I also think the producers of the show intend for this theme of "hate" against certain couples to be more generic because it DOES cover so many diverse couple experiences.
Probably true.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - busyizzy - 11-26-2014
@Lou:
Ahhh...okay re: political party affiliation. I totally missed your point. Very true about the definition of marriage for most conservatives. Even the ones who don't hate LGBT will generally argue about the term marriage, which they believe is a religious term. Personally, I wonder if "marriage" licenses were termed merger licenses and "divorces" were called dissolution agreements, just like in big business, if things would go more smoothly. LOL.
Good point re: the stage being set in the first season. I think because I don't see the Wesen bars as a regular shooting location or Monroe in the Wesen support group, it doesn't really register. And while we saw Monrosalee's wedding, it was still a potential fight club waiting to happen because of the inter-Wesenage couple. I think there have been several contradictions by the Grimm writers about whether they form tight groups or whether they only get together in like clusters sporadically.
Perhaps a simple point would be...we don't see very much Wesen activity unless there's a problem or a crime committed so it's hard to imagine the normalcy in some of their lives. Bud may be the only one who shows that part of Wesen life because he belongs to a "lodge." Haha.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - Lou - 11-27-2014
As I said before there used to be a member here who made some great points during our Season 1 re- watch about how most of initial comments by Monroe to Nick about Wessons turned out wrong. His point was that the show writers hadn't quite figured that stuff out yet. I'll see if i can find that thread. Anyway, by the end of the first couple of episodes, most of that stuff got figured out. I don't think we have much or even any inconsistencies since.
I forgot about the Lodge. I think it was all beavers. and if i remember right the church's congregation was all sheep. The restaurant was all pigs. I think Monroe's friends, and his support group were multi-species, so perhaps Monroe was always a more tolerant and less traditional Wesson. Oh wait, of course he was - he is a Vegan, too. Anyway, the point I think I'm trying to make is that most of our evidence is that Wesson do get together along species line, and have opporurtunities to find mates of their own species. Probably cross species get-togethers are more rare.
Oh, and come to think of it. In Dying On A Prayer, the Weson's ex-wife was human. so that kind of relationship pops up in Grimm once in a while too.
OK, the guy's name was HellJacket.
In this thread he made most of his points. mostly knocking the stuff Hank told Grimm in S1E1. BTW, the guy was sometimes... um... atangonistic in this forum. I can't remember if he ended up getting kicked out or what. but to give the credit he made this point pretty well.
http://grimmforum.com/forum/Thread-Why-Can-Monroe-Go-Blutbad?page=2
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - droid327 - 11-27-2014
(11-26-2014, 09:40 AM)Elkhound Wrote: [quote='Lou' pid='9479' dateline='1416956108']
And what famous dictator who had a big problem with Jews do we know was a Blutbad?
Schakal! He was a Schakaaaaal! The writers just didnt don't know their own lore enough to talk about it extemporaneously, and are too embarrassed to admit it at this point
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - Altered Realtity - 11-27-2014
(11-26-2014, 01:01 PM)Lou Wrote:(11-25-2014, 09:34 PM)droid327 Wrote: I don't remember what about the first season was extremely flag-wavy about any specific social issues, though? Unless frog-eating is a subculture I'm not aware of?
Just off the top of my head, the Let Your Hair Down episode had a child abuse theme. It also had a criminal element growing MJ on public lands - which is an issue in the PNW.
Just recently in the Dying for the Prayer episode there was a link to abusive relationships.
Racism has been alluded to many times.
I am not getting any other ideas. Can someone help?
Aside from the ones you've mentioned, I can think of quite a few issues the show has touched on either directly or indirectly.
Season 1 Episode 1 - serial killers and I don't think that the killer being a postal worker was without meaning ;D
S1E2 - the damage that can be done by holding on to outdated traditions/cultural practices (might have been unintentional that one)
S1E4 - the serial rapist kidnapping and holding women in his home.
S1E5 - bullying and clashes across socio-economic lines (and a whole lot of NIMBYing)
S1E10 - homelessness, street kids and organ trafficking
S1E15 - drug addiction and drug trafficking
S1E16 - spousal abuse and the exploitation of women (forcing a woman to do something/produce something that will enrich the men)
S1E19 - corruption in the construction world/ Mob influence
S2E3 - rape/gang rape with extra icky overtones of incest.
S2E7 - while not that well done, this one sort of touches on both mental illness in children and the concerns around an increase in children who are experiencing early puberty (show even touches on one of the more popular explanations of the phenomena)
S2E8 - this one's a little more subtle, but to me it looks like a warning tale about putting too much pressure on kids to "do well". Extreme competition and pressure to excel can have negative consequences.
S2E16 - stalking and obsession and how hero worship can turn into something else
S2E17 - witness/jury tampering
S2E18 - environmental degradation
S2E19 - poaching and endangered species
S2E20 - obsession and stalking (not too sure I like how it was implied that the woman was encouraging/egging the guys on in their behavior).
S3E4 - thought this one was a bit of a commentary on the issues of arranged marriages and the problems that can occur when these are arranged across the new world/old world divide (I may be reading more in to this one than the writers intended)
S3E6 - another commentary on mental health issues in children and how ill equipped we seem to be to handle them
S3E10 - gang violence and issues around the drug trade with the side story of spousal abuse involving Juliette's friend
S3E11 - sexual abuse in the military and how poorly the military has handled the problem
S3E13 - bigotry and intolerance and the impact they can have on a family
S3E15 - the ongoing fight between the scientific community and native peoples regarding the treatment of burial sites and human remains
S4E2 - corporate espionage
S4E4 - as mentioned spousal abuse, but also child abuse
S4E5 - spousal abuse, this time mental and emotional rather than physical
Rather a lot there, but due to the procedural element, it's a given that these sorts of things will show up.
In going over this, I've notice that in the spousal abuse cases (there were several) the couple were either different types of wesen, Klaustreich/Seltenvogel and I think Juliette's friend and her husband were different types (she seemed to be a Fuchbau and looked like a Luisant-Pêcheur) or a wesen and human pairing. Not sure if the show was trying to make a comment here or not. In the human/wesen cases, neither of the women were Kehrseite-Genträger, so that played into the abuse. In the mixed relationships, I wonder if the prejudices in the wesen community against such pairings, doesn't also play into the situation, isolating the women from their support system. At the time I saw Eyes of the Beholder, I did wonder why Juliette's friend when to Juliette rather than someone closer. All that said, I may be reading more into this than was intended.
And if you've made it all the way though my ramblings, you deserve a cookie!
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - droid327 - 11-27-2014
(11-27-2014, 08:26 AM)Lou Wrote: most of our evidence is that Wesson do get together along species line, and have opporurtunities to find mates of their own species. Probably cross species get-togethers are more rare.
Oh, and come to think of it. In Dying On A Prayer, the Weson's ex-wife was human. so that kind of relationship pops up in Grimm once in a while too.
I imagine, just like in the real world, that they have ways of attracting or finding mates. How do two birds or two frogs find a mate of the same species with so many other birds, frogs, and other animals all around them, especially the more uncommon species? Maybe some Wesen can smell each other even when un-Woged, we know Monroe can. Maybe others have special "calls" or signals or demonstrations that only mean anything to other Wesen of their species. Maybe some instinctually return to certain places at certain times to find mates, a "Wesen singles' convention".
And yeah, I think its safe to say Wesen-human couplings are considered OK, though its probably not ideal if the human spouse isn't a Kehrseite, for obvious reasons.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - Lou - 11-27-2014
(11-27-2014, 11:12 AM)Altered Realtity Wrote: Rather a lot there, but due to the procedural element, it's a given that these sorts of things will show up.
Wow! Wow! Wow!
That was great. You totally made my point and I'm totally impressed with the effort you put into this. I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with you to make all these connections or with the writers to have included all these issues.
Quote:In going over this, I've notice that in the spousal abuse cases (there were several) the couple were either different types of wesen, Klaustreich/Seltenvogel and I think Juliette's friend and her husband were different types (she seemed to be a Fuchbau and looked like a Luisant-Pêcheur) or a wesen and human pairing. Not sure if the show was trying to make a comment here or not. In the human/wesen cases, neither of the women were Kehrseite-Genträger, so that played into the abuse. In the mixed relationships, I wonder if the prejudices in the wesen community against such pairings, doesn't also play into the situation, isolating the women from their support system. At the time I saw Eyes of the Beholder, I did wonder why Juliette's friend when to Juliette rather than someone closer. All that said, I may be reading more into this than was intended.
I gotta say wow wow wow, again. And the pick up of the spousal abusive and the mixed wesson marriages. I can't say if you are reading more into this, or if the writers did this intentionally, but it puts this whole theme of mixed marriages into a bit of different light.
Quote:And if you've made it all the way though my ramblings, you deserve a cookie!
Never to turn down a cookie. but you deserve a gold star. Here's a +! instead.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - Altered Realtity - 11-27-2014
(11-27-2014, 12:13 PM)Lou Wrote:(11-27-2014, 11:12 AM)Altered Realtity Wrote: Rather a lot there, but due to the procedural element, it's a given that these sorts of things will show up.
Wow! Wow! Wow!
That was great. You totally made my point and I'm totally impressed with the effort you put into this. I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with you to make all these connections or with the writers to have included all these issues.
Quote:In going over this, I've notice that in the spousal abuse cases (there were several) the couple were either different types of wesen, Klaustreich/Seltenvogel and I think Juliette's friend and her husband were different types (she seemed to be a Fuchbau and looked like a Luisant-Pêcheur) or a wesen and human pairing. Not sure if the show was trying to make a comment here or not. In the human/wesen cases, neither of the women were Kehrseite-Genträger, so that played into the abuse. In the mixed relationships, I wonder if the prejudices in the wesen community against such pairings, doesn't also play into the situation, isolating the women from their support system. At the time I saw Eyes of the Beholder, I did wonder why Juliette's friend when to Juliette rather than someone closer. All that said, I may be reading more into this than was intended.
I gotta say wow wow wow, again. And the pick up of the spousal abusive and the mixed wesson marriages. I can't say if you are reading more into this, or if the writers did this intentionally, but it puts this whole theme of mixed marriages into a bit of different light.
Quote:And if you've made it all the way though my ramblings, you deserve a cookie!
Never to turn down a cookie. but you deserve a gold star. Here's a +! instead.
Thanks
gold stars or + are good. And probably a better choice for me than a cookie. I may be making connections where there are none, but that's kinda a hazard with my background. Back in the dark ages, when I was at Uni, I majored in Sociology with a double minor in Psychology and Philosophy. Those things definitely changed how I look at interpersonal relationships.
And I'm a huge nerd who spends way to much time thinking about tv shows/movies and the characters in them. Sometimes more (I suspect) than the people writing/producing them. Ahem.
RE: S4E05 - Cry Luison - speakeasy - 11-28-2014
Busy week with family in town and the holiday, so I just got the chance to re-read this thread. One of our better ones, imo. Fun to read and thought-provoking to cogitate about!
There were a couple more things about the episode which I found interesting. Renard made a comment about Elizabeth's wealth when they were walking through his new home (said he was able to get it because of her). That solves the mystery of why an officer of the law could afford the luxurious apartment he lived in previously. The topic has come up a few times in the past.
Thought it was a bit comical that Josh threw the urn containing his dad's remains at his attackers. Guess it could qualify as spreading his ashes.
If he comes to Portland, don't think Nick's gonna like it much. Wonder what Viktor has in mind for Adalind to do to help him get Diana. Hope Elizabeth is on the scene if his sends his thugs to get the baby. They would reap the whirlwind of two brassed-off 'grandmas' with vengeance on their minds.