+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: Juliette and her Men (/Thread-Juliette-and-her-Men)
RE: Juliette and her Men - irukandji - 09-16-2015
(09-16-2015, 04:54 AM)New Guy Wrote:(09-15-2015, 07:40 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-15-2015, 07:26 PM)New Guy Wrote: Once again you failed to provide substantive data. Your WAG of her pay is vacuous compared to data published by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Your 'WAG' of her pay? What is that?
Sorry for the technical jargon:
wild ass guess
A Wild Ass Guess (WAG) is an estimate that is based upon experience, similarity and 'windage' and does not have immediately verifiable data that could be used to substantiate the estimate.
Oh, I see. Well, news flash for you. WAG is not technical jargon, it's slang.
I might point out that you yourself, with your supposedly substantive data, have not adhered to a particular website, but instead throw two or three out at a time in order to make it seem you know what you're talking about. No one knows if you went through 20 websites and picked out the top five to suit your argument or settled for the first three because Juliette's pay seemed appropriate to you. You don't provide any background on the websites, nor the reasoning as to why you cited them and not others. Finally, for all of your so called research, you still haven't provided data on what a DVM who owns her own practice might make.
I am guessing, I admit it. But I explained I what I used to make my determinations. Admit it, you're guessing too. You said it yourself. We have not been given the facts on what Juliette or Nick makes, their investments, etc.
RE: Juliette and her Men - New Guy - 09-16-2015
(09-16-2015, 05:27 AM)irukandji Wrote:Once again you failed to provide substantive data.(09-16-2015, 04:54 AM)New Guy Wrote:(09-15-2015, 07:40 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-15-2015, 07:26 PM)New Guy Wrote: Once again you failed to provide substantive data. Your WAG of her pay is vacuous compared to data published by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Your 'WAG' of her pay? What is that?
Sorry for the technical jargon:
wild ass guess
A Wild Ass Guess (WAG) is an estimate that is based upon experience, similarity and 'windage' and does not have immediately verifiable data that could be used to substantiate the estimate.
Oh, I see. Well, news flash for you. WAG is not technical jargon, it's slang.
I might point out that you yourself, with your supposedly substantive data, have not adhered to a particular website, but instead throw two or three out at a time in order to make it seem you know what you're talking about. No one knows if you went through 20 websites and picked out the top five to suit your argument or settled for the first three because Juliette's pay seemed appropriate to you. You don't provide any background on the websites, nor the reasoning as to why you cited them and not others. Finally, for all of your so called research, you still haven't provided data on what a DVM who owns her own practice might make.
I am guessing, I admit it. But I explained I what I used to make my determinations. Admit it, you're guessing too. You said it yourself. We have not been given the facts on what Juliette or Nick makes, their investments, etc.
Data, data, data.
You must support with data.
Data, data,data.
Your guessing does not matta.
The BLS does not guess. They gather voluminous data, assemble statistics and publish reports. The sources of data, and assemblage methodology is fully disclosed. What "background" do you lack? We have not been given the facts on what Juliette or Nick makes, so I researched and presented well documented salary data from reliable resources.
A DVM is an earned degree. Even an "average" veterinarian must be highly skilled. According to figures from the U.S. Department of Labor, the lowest 10 percent of veterinarians earn under $52,530 per year, whereas the top 10 percent earn over $144,100 per year. The median annual earnings figure, which is defined as that amount where half the veterinarians earned less than this figure and half earned more, is $84,460.
The Sokanu data is consistent. Oregon veterinarians earn an average salary of $88,120 per year. Salaries typically start from $46,170 and go up to $133,530. These numbers may vary depending on several factors, like level of education, amount of experience, industry, company size and location.
In episode 1.17 Juliette told Nick, Hank and Adalind she put herself through school. In four seasons her parents never appeared. So my WAG is she is heavily in debt for student loans. It seems highly unlikely she had any ownership in Roseway Veterinary Hospital. Even at six years in practice, she would not be a senior. There is no reason to believe Juliette's earnings were above average. By season 4 she seems to have thrown her veterinarian career to the wind and concentrate on being Hexenette. A senior partner in any viable professional practice would not make such a decision. She does not strike me as the sharpest scalpel in the drawer.
You seem to concede that PPA knows what a PPD detective is paid. BLS and Sokanu know what an average veterinarian earns. Unless viable data to the contrary is provided, they (Nick and Juliette) both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range and are in the same socio-economic class.
You claim that there are 20 websites with pay data. If you are able to find viable data indicating an average DVM earns in a much higher range, about $150-$175K, please disclose your source.
As you can tell, I am not a poet. My degrees are in mathematics and statistics. My professional career spanned 42 years. My expertise was in executive and employee benefits. I consulted with clients ranging from Fortune 500 companies to solo practitioners including a few veterinarian practices. I have worked with a lot of compensation data.
You are welcome to research until the cows come home, however I doubt you will discover viable data to support your WAG.
RE: Juliette and her Men - irukandji - 09-16-2015
(09-16-2015, 10:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: Once again you failed to provide substantive data.
Oh, you're a poet and don't know it.
As we both know, I will not be supplying any data for fictional characters. You, on the other hand, might continue to provide useless website data without backup as an effort to supply facts for fictional characters. But I think you see it too. We've hit the end of this portion of the discussion.
In my opinion, Juliette is not within Nick's social or economic circle. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise.
RE: Juliette and her Men - New Guy - 09-16-2015
(09-16-2015, 11:41 AM)irukandji Wrote:Dear Mr. Jellyfish,(09-16-2015, 10:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: Once again you failed to provide substantive data.
Oh, you're a poet and don't know it.
As we both know, I will not be supplying any data for fictional characters. You, on the other hand, might continue to provide useless website data without backup as an effort to supply facts for fictional characters. But I think you see it too. We've hit the end of this portion of the discussion.
In my opinion, Juliette is not within Nick's social or economic circle. I have seen nothing to prove otherwise.
You did conclusively prove one thing.
New Guy
RE: Juliette and her Men - irukandji - 09-16-2015
Quote:In episode 1.17 Juliette told Nick, Hank and Adalind she put herself through school.
Actually, it was Adalind who told them she put herself through school, to which Juliette replied she put herself through school. Typical, bimbo twit that she is, she was intimidated by Juliette even then.
Quote:Dear Mr. Jellyfish,
You did conclusively prove one thing….etc.
I wondered how long it would take you to figure it out. Bet you didn’t find it in the urban dictionary. Oh, and by the way, it’s Mrs. Jellyfish.
Quote:The BLS does not guess. They gather voluminous data, assemble statistics and publish reports. The sources of data, and assemblage methodology is fully disclosed.
So…..you’re basing your argument on a government agency that fudges and categorizes unemployment rates in an effort to fool the public into believing unemployment rates are falling? Really? Well.....okay.
I think this quote from Aaron Levenstein about sums it up:
“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.”
Quote:So my WAG is she is heavily in debt for student loans
also
Quote:It seems highly unlikely she had any ownership in Roseway Veterinary Hospital. Even at six years in practice, she would not be a senior. By season 4 she seems to have thrown her veterinarian career to the wind and concentrate on being Hexenette
A couple of things here. According to the Grimm wiki, she started working at the Roseway Veterinary Hospital in 2006, so it’s been nine years in practice, not six.
Also, she did not “throw” her veterinary career to the wind. In the episode, Maréchaussée, she asks Nick if he is still at work. He said yes and she also says she’s at work. It’s likely Juliette continued working fulltime until the episode, Mishipeshu, where she was put in jail. Even then, she probably was working up until she was incarcerated.
Quote:There is no reason to believe Juliette's earnings were above average. Unless viable data to the contrary is provided, they (Nick and Juliette) both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range and are in the same socio-economic class.
So, according to your wild guess, Juliette’s income at best was $110,000.00. Also, according to your guess, she was heavily in debt for student loans. Some tallies of her expenses here. Keep in mind these are just estimates. I think in some cases they might be low:
1. I’m going to estimate her student loan at $250k to $300k, including books, and expenses, and post graduate studies. That’s probably a conservative figure, but I’ll leave it at that for now. I’m also allowing for no grants or scholarships, since according to you, she wasn’t the sharpest scalpel in the drawer. I’m thinking probably about $2000.00 each month to repay the loan.
2. She owns her own house. According to websites I reviewed, a comparable house would run about $399k and up in Portland. I know Juliette’s house had an extra bedroom. It could have had more. And no, I’m not going to provide the web addresses of the websites. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me. An estimate of her monthly payment would be $3k, assuming her house is worth in the $425k range. I figure $40,000.00 a year for payments and taxes.
3. I don’t know the make and model of Juliette’s car. Comparing it to my own newer model vehicle, I’m going to guess at anywhere from $25k to $30k. $450.00 to $550.00 per month for car payment. $60.00 per week for gas, $300.00 additional for maintenance. $4000.00 a year for comprehensive coverage to satisfy her loan requirements.
4. Juliette wears nice, up to date clothes. I can tell you from personal experience, they’re not something she’d buy at Kmart or Walmart. Macy's or Bloomingdale's more likely. So there are expenses for clothing and shoes, not to mention cosmetics, hair products, personal items. $10k a year estimate.
5. As a person who deals directly with the public, she would also have to invest in personal improvements such as manicures, pedicures, hair dressers, trips to the gym, etc. $10k a year.
6. Expenses for the house: furniture, household appliances, electronics, kitchen and bathroom items, etc. $40k-$60k, and that includes items she would have to replace do to breakage, worn out, or just simply wants to purchase. $150.00 a month loan repayment on the furniture, $300 a year for replacement/additional purchase.
7. Malpractice insurance, personal health insurance, licensure, medical supplies for her practice. I have no idea. I’m going to guess maybe $20k a year.
I did not take into consideration the taxes she would have to pay on her income, food she would have had to purchase in order to cook, items such as cable or internet, cell phone expenses, electricity, gas, water, etc., not to mention the times she went out to dinner.
Go ahead. Break her expenses down. I would like to see how she could make it on the median income you're suggesting.
As a caveat to this, I'm not including Nick's pay nor should it be included. He is not married to Juliette, he is under no legal obligation to foot her bills, and he is free to leave at any time. Juliette would have figured that in way before she invited him to live with her. That scalpel in the drawer mentality was working full time there.
RE: Juliette and her Men - irukandji - 09-18-2015
(09-15-2015, 07:28 AM)TieDyeJackson Wrote:(09-14-2015, 02:15 PM)hansel77 Wrote: Juliette said no at the time because she felt at the time that nick was not being fully open/honest with her. With everything that had taken place up to that moment she felt that while he loved her there was something he was not telling her and she wanted him to come-out and say whatever it was.
I just re-watch season one and I am more certain now that the writers/producers drop the ball with their development of this character. I believe that should have incorporated her into nick's identity by episode 13/14 still have her lose her memory of him at the end of the season. Bring back her memory earlier in season two, probably around episode 9 or 10. Build up the character and still remove at the end of season 4. I believe viewers would be more invested in her than they were. If Rosalee was removed instead of Juliette the up-roar from the fans would be more intense.
I rewatched the series and I really think the writing was on the wall for Juliette in the pilot. Her and Nick were doomed and Adalind and Nick are intertwined from the get go. When Marie tells him to leave her is because the Grimm life is no place for a normal person. I think Juliette had a target on her back from that point on. I think eventually Hank will fall as well if they don't get him involved with someone who is Wessen because currently he is really not part of that world. Wu is the exception because he is odd ball enough to be mistaken for a wesen lol.
I think she's a major twit, and I couldn't stand the way she looked at Nick and then forced him to put his hand on her baby. But I do need to give some more thought to Adalind. It's possible, that their social backgrounds and cultures may have much in common. They both seem to flip flop from good to evil and back again with little or no conscience.
I don't know that we've ever seen Adalind's residence, and we only saw a small portion of Catherine's, so Adalind may be in his class economically as well.
RE: Juliette and her Men - izzy - 09-28-2015
(09-04-2015, 11:00 AM)TieDyeJackson Wrote: Both Nick and Juliette had their faults. In my opinion, Juliette always thought herself Nick's better and you could see the writing on the wall from the start of the series.
I could not agree more. As I have oft mentioned, I think she was slumming when she met Nick...
(09-08-2015, 06:48 PM)irukandji Wrote: Is she now absolved of past evils because she's pregnant with Nick's baby?
Absolved, no I would say not. That being said, is there any woman out there who has had a child, held it at her breast and nursed it that was not transformed by the experience? I know I became a different man when I knew I was to be a father, and a different man yet again once I was a father. I would think the transformative process would be even more pronounced in regard to a mother.
(09-12-2015, 09:29 AM)irukandji Wrote: Was Juliette slumming when she picked up Nick? For those who don't know what slumming is, it was a practice for the well to do to go down into the slums and experience the life of the poor. Some people would stay for a few days, others months, and there is documented history of those who made the decision to live out the rest of their lives in the slums.
I had never heard of the term applied to women until Izzy brought it up some time ago. Women who slum are like those above, people who are well educated and wealthy. As such, they would be expected to marry men within their caste. However, for diversion, some of these women venture outside their caste and pursue men of lower caste for a fling, nothing more.
While Juliette is slowly regaining her memory, she recalls a lamp that Nick owns after she invites him to move in to her house. If I recall correctly, it was something he liked and she did not and there was some significance to that that jarred her memory.
This came from the recaps and I put it in here to show that Juliette owned the house, not Nick. Also, it was Juliette who invited Nick to move in, not the other way around. Nick slept on the couch during her amnesia, and later moved out with Monroe. We know the house has at least two bedrooms because Trubel moves into one of them. The house is Juliette's domain and she has complete control of it.
Juliette, a veterinarian, is of a higher caste than Nick, a cop. She invited him to live with her. I have been wondering for a while now if Juliette was slumming with Nick just for the experience, but maybe wanting to make more out of it. Izzy thought she actually might have fallen in love with Nick. I myself tend to take a different view. She said she loved Nick, or "maybe she loved him". I tend to think she might have been trying to fool herself into believing she was in love with him. However, the intelligent part of her knew that wasn't true (her real purpose was slumming), and that's what kept her from making the mistake of marrying him.
I like how you wrote this, and of course I agree. I might also add to you last point, she may have felt compelled to tell herself she was in love. I was talking to an old girlfriend not too long ago and she made a comment analogous to the following:
It just really never happened for me. Finding love and all that.
That is her lament as a now 40 something woman.
Taking that tidbit with your comment, I can now understand why a woman might fool herself into thinking she is in love.
Thank you for enriching my understanding of the fairer sex. It is appreciated.
(09-12-2015, 07:32 PM)irukandji Wrote: Juliette had it all going for her. She was educated, beautiful, well off enough to afford her own house, had her own profession, and she was the one who invited Nick to move in with her. Nick probably was intimidated by such a woman, one who seemed interested in him even though she was way out of his league. After all, he had nothing to offer her. Maybe he deliberately kept his Grimmness from her until he was proficient, in an attempt to attain at least a little status with her.
I could not agree more. As a male growing up in a time when a man was expected to bring something to the table when he asked for a woman's hand, I can easily see this. I agree on your summation, Juliette was way out of Nick's league.
(09-14-2015, 01:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: [
Lacking any data to the contrary, Juliette and Nick are in the same socio-economic class. As such neither can possibly "slum" with the other.
Juliette's rejection of Nick's proposal has nothing to do with his economic status. I see no evidence that Juliette considers Nick "less fortunate" than her.
Uh, Juliette is a doctor and Nick is a cop, that is hardly the same socioeconomic class. Many of my students are cops, we do not to hang in the same social circles. They are fine people and we talk for a few minutes now and again, but there is a wide chasm in our interests in terms of politics, community, world affairs and general hobbies and interests. When we go hunting, fishing or shooting the conversations are strained at best. Several of them earn more than people who are normally considered in a much higher socio-economic class. Socio-economic class embraces income, education, and social status.
There is a world of difference between a Doctor and a police officer. The retiring Chief of Police in my community is retiring at age 55 this November. He makes 165K a year. He is a high school graduate. I know him fairly well. He assisted my campaign when I ran for public office. He is a very nice man, His wife is a cop and has a AAS from our local Community College. They are a very nice couple, sweet as can be, salt of the earth people. With their combined 280K a year plus salary they can easily afford the 22-40K(depending on level of membership)a year to belong to the private Country Club near them. They do not belong. However they are a member of the public Country Club. There are reasons for that. The private country club consists mostly of Doctors, Lawyers, College Professors and Business men, the public club mostly police men, firemen, grade school and high school teachers, plumbers, ad electricians. Occasionally teachers are invited to the private Country Club for special functions. The social spheres are clearly different.
RE: Juliette and her Men - izzy - 09-28-2015
(09-14-2015, 04:04 PM)irukandji Wrote: You're missing the point of slumming. The person slumming doesn't slum in some effort to bestow their shining personality on another they consider less fortunate. They slum because they're looking for something that they're not finding within their own socio-economic class. No one's saying Juliette didn't like Nick or considered herself above him in some way.
Exactly. When I was boxer more than one, attractive, well educated, upper class damsel decided to slum a bit. They were oft surprised by what they got an did not get. More often than not the impulse was for the thrill, and element of fantasy, the great unwashed brute of man "forcing" them to do those unspeakable acts that Biff would never dare think of much less suggest doing.
On the Doctor of Veterinary medicine side and BLS number discussion, the BLS data is flawed for Vets, Dentists and almost all small business owners. Just ask an CPA who does their books. With Vets in particular, those in practice have their reported income from their direct Vet practice, then usually another business under a separate TIN that is for pet supplies etc, and likely a separate boarding, training facility. Many have their own land and building and lease it to their self to lower their taxable income. The reason is to avoid having to pay both sides of social security and to convert what would be social security and medicare taxable dollars at ordinary income rates into long term capital gains (ie. if I buy real estate and lease it back they lower their social security and medicare taxable base substantially and convert ordinary income into a capital gain that can be postponed almost indefinitely by simply refinancing and or acquiring more capital assets.
And a concept called owner's benefit emerges. this allows you to more or less to take personal expenses and convert them to business expenses thus lowering your taxable income yet again.
The short of it, in the case of a Vet or Dentist or small business man I would not put a dime of credence into what the BLS claims they earn is. I would revise it substantially upwards.
In the end it is not what you make, it is what you keep after taxes that matters.
RE: Juliette and her Men - Hexenadler - 09-29-2015
(09-16-2015, 10:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: In episode 1.17 Juliette told Nick, Hank and Adalind she put herself through school. In four seasons her parents never appeared. So my WAG is she is heavily in debt for student loans. It seems highly unlikely she had any ownership in Roseway Veterinary Hospital. Even at six years in practice, she would not be a senior. There is no reason to believe Juliette's earnings were above average. By season 4 she seems to have thrown her veterinarian career to the wind and concentrate on being Hexenette. A senior partner in any viable professional practice would not make such a decision. She does not strike me as the sharpest scalpel in the drawer.
It almost makes you wonder if Hexenette simply assumed the Royals would cover the bills for the rest of her life, judging from how abruptly she ditched her veterinarian job. Adalind managed to find a career for herself as a lawyer, but that's a profession where she was able to naturally apply her "skills" as a Hexenbiest. Juliette, on the other hand, has no such training, and I can't think of many employers willing to hire a psychotic woman with a hair-trigger temper. It's kind of obvious she didn't really think this through.
If Juliette were ever to be resurrected, one development I'd love to see is her desperately scrounging around for employment again, only to be met with one slammed door in her face after another, thanks partly to the irresponsible way she bailed out from her previous job. It would be a well-deserved lesson in humility after all the damage her Hexenbiest temperament caused.
RE: Juliette and her Men - TieDyeJackson - 09-29-2015
(09-29-2015, 06:53 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:(09-16-2015, 10:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: In episode 1.17 Juliette told Nick, Hank and Adalind she put herself through school. In four seasons her parents never appeared. So my WAG is she is heavily in debt for student loans. It seems highly unlikely she had any ownership in Roseway Veterinary Hospital. Even at six years in practice, she would not be a senior. There is no reason to believe Juliette's earnings were above average. By season 4 she seems to have thrown her veterinarian career to the wind and concentrate on being Hexenette. A senior partner in any viable professional practice would not make such a decision. She does not strike me as the sharpest scalpel in the drawer.
It almost makes you wonder if Hexenette simply assumed the Royals would cover the bills for the rest of her life, judging from how abruptly she ditched her veterinarian job. Adalind managed to find a career for herself as a lawyer, but that's a profession where she was able to naturally apply her "skills" as a Hexenbiest. Juliette, on the other hand, has no such training, and I can't think of many employers willing to hire a psychotic woman with a hair-trigger temper. It's kind of obvious she didn't really think this through.
If Juliette were ever to be resurrected, one development I'd love to see is her desperately scrounging around for employment again, only to be met with one slammed door in her face after another, thanks partly to the irresponsible way she bailed out from her previous job. It would be a well-deserved lesson in humility after all the damage her Hexenbiest temperament caused.
I really hope Adalind returns to her job. I just want to see either Trubel or Monroe as the Grex's babysitter lol.