Grimm Forum

In another thread Irukandji made a comment that I thought deserved its own thread, so:

(12-22-2016, 04:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]That said, none of this convinces me that Juliette was knew Kelly was going to be killed. I also believe she didn't go upstairs of her own accord, but was told to go up there. She seemed extremely surprised to find Diana sitting in the middle of the livingroom by herself. This again tells me there were some unplanned events that night. The royals don't leave the world's most valuable child sitting by herself in the middle of the living room if they planned on going outside to kill Kelly. They would have told Juliette to take her upstairs.

Okay, accepting what you said as gospel still yields the following query presented as as statement(by the way, this is not a dispute with the ever awesome irukandji's comments (for one I fear her, she can kick my ass), it is more just a convenient entry point into something that has been bothering me for some time about Grimm and the way they portray women):

Juliette was supposedly a middle 30s veterinarian, so she is a doctor. As part of her profession she has to make life and death decisions based on partial information. In other words she has to be intuitive and based on deductive reasoning, supported by science as part of her actual training of her profession able to draw a decisive conclusion. She is, ergo, fully capable of thinking on her own, determining what information is relevant, evaluating that information and drawing a conclusion. So what happened to that woman? Answer, she was devolved by schlock writing to a quivering little girl who responds to the auspice of vested authority with sheer obedience. Moreover, even though you can make the case Kenneth was simply prodding Nick, a simple roll in the hay, i.e getting her needs met, was enough to turn her against him. IN other words: we all know what she needs.

I am the guy who's eye's follow your rear around as you walk, who openly stares at your headlights, and who's smile openly conveys what I am thinking; I can and will respect your intellect, abilities and skills, bu tit is your femaleness that I am drawn to: I am a typical male pig. But even at that this sort of portrayal ticks even me off. How you women are not incensed is beyond me. So I guess we are to assume Kenneth;s schlong is so huge it somehow penetrated Juliette's brain and gave her a lobotomy? I mean where is the woman who went to medical school? Oh I get it, the big strong man told her to go bake cookies so she went ahead and baked both chocolate chip and oatmeal raisin just to be on the safe side?

I can accept what they did with Adlaind a bit more, as I know many lawyers who are idiots. Adalind may have simply been legal arm candy. Some sleazy firms have them on staff, I can begrudgingly accept that type of interpretation. But Juliette too? The doctor who also wanted to learn to defend herself and took up firearms training is just going to shut off her brain and obey a frickin arrogant ass_ _ _ _ like Kenneth because he said to? Did she iron his shirts too so she could feel like a real woman?

Part of what really annoys me is, the creative team made the deliberate decision to change the Juliette character from a local Baker to a Veterinarian. So that also means they made a deliberate decision to, in many ways, up that ante on the implicit statement they were making about Juliette. So apparently women,no matter their level of attainment, education, just lose their own identity and sense of self, intellect, and ability once a man sinks his manhood in her - bravo, we should all be proud, it is so enlightening.

My mother came from a time when a woman’s options for educational attainment and work/career were limited. She was very bright and learned, and in a different time, with different options, would have thrived in the world of female professionals. But she never had that choice/option. As a result it really annoys me when I see a woman of exceptional obtainment portrayed as being put in her place by a man. It would be one thing is Juliette's character made a conscious decision, but as Irukandji indicated it appears Juliette was just being an obedient little girl. Nice, real nice…

(12-23-2016, 12:33 AM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]it appears Juliette was just being an obedient little girl. Nice, real nice…

It's all Kenneths fault. It was all because of that one good Romp.

But in all seriousness, I understand how you feel in your post. Juliette was made dummer than just dum. An educated female all of a sudden not knowing the difference between right and wrong, tragic and non-tragic, real and fiction.
It felt like the creators made her feel as if she was in total denial as to what was comming next when Kelly and Diana arrived. This is why I do keep stressing that even her postures, gestures and expressions showed definite signs that she expected Kellys death.

When she saw blood on Kenneths face after they took out Kelly, Juliette did not look surprised, instead she looked more like "ohh my goodness, what crap storm did I just begin", as her realisation dawned on her. Due to her actions, it made it easier for her to make up her mind to fly away with the Royals. But, once she heard gun fire, she felt she needed to face her actions with the man she purposely hurt.

Her anger overwhelmed her to cause tragedy, but once it was all done, she felt empty, gaining nothing and rather die in the hands of her x boyfriend. Nick simply made it all worse by refusing to kill her, which she could not take likely as the guilt flooded her feelings. Looking and seeing Nick alive was no acceptance any longer. She felt if she has gone this deep down the rabbit hole, why stop here and not go further for there was nothing else to loose...she decided to do her final master piece by striking down Nick to his death.

All in all, she knew the Royals would kill Kelly, she knew Kelly would not stand down and that it would be a fight to death. She knew the child Diana was innocent, that not enough Juliette hair strokes on Diana's head in the world could clear up her conscience as she sat in the car driving off into the night with the enemy she made her bed with. This is my take.

I agree with you on certain points.Juliette became unstable.That they are to blame? .No.Nick did not know how to face the situation but she did not show him that he wanted her help.He took over his son and Adalind because he is a responsible man.If juliette did not understand that's why it was silly, full of rage.We are in a new century,There does not have to be a marriage between(Although in certain telenovelas still pass that type of situation)Nick is not a cold-blooded killer.I think he could not because he could not take away his feelings of who she was.Would have been different had it not been juliette.Instead Trubel had to receive training to control himself and decided to shoot him
  for saving Nick's life.Although perhaps the group HW did not make it aware of everything,As far as juliette"Hexenbiest"

(12-23-2016, 01:25 AM)Purity Wrote: [ -> ]All in all, she knew the Royals would kill Kelly, she knew Kelly would not stand down and that it would be a fight to death. She knew the child Diana was innocent, that not enough Juliette hair strokes on Diana's head in the world could clear up her conscience as she sat in the car driving off into the night with the enemy she made her bed with. This is my take.

Hi Purity,
I agree with you. All of the evidence is that Hexenette not only knew but helped plan everything that happened. In many fantasies the evil witch ends up dead. When Trubel shot her it was a natural consequence for her conscious decision to become as vile, evil and violent as possible.
I do wonder why she didn't just leave Portland, open a new veterinary practice and start over. IMO, the writers decided to elevate one of the characters to such an extreme level of villainy that her death would be cause for celebration. Bingo! Mission accomplished.
So with such a perfect dramatic death, why did the show turn her corpse into FrankenEve the Wooden Woman Killer? Not entertaining. Very irritating.
N G

Izzy when it comes to thinking in terms of levels of violence. Rational thought does not always provide the most logical choices. Most people may think that someone could kill. It is another to think they would kill. Take soldiers in a war zone. Even though they are trained. For a lot of them the first shot is the hardest. When it is face to face it is even harder. In the situation Juliette was in denial was probably a large part of what was going on. Izzy I am not sure what your experiences are. But most people in deadly situations may consider death but find was to deny it will happen. If you have ever been involved in a robbery where a gun was involved. Your mind keeps telling you they are not going to pull the trigger. Even though you are shitting in your paints thinking i am going to die. Izzy your argument depends on your belief that Juliette should have realized death was a for gone conclusion. In the show or real life it would not work that way.

This has been one of the main debates on the forum those who think at least she should have known and those who think she couldn't have known. As with most thing in life there is no black and white it is almost all gray. So we have a good debate point that keeps coming around.

Facts as I see them are she was there on the planning and even told Kenneth who lived in the home around Nick's house. So if she didn't know she must have thought that the easy going verrat were just going to tie them up? She sent the email to Kelly one of the few people Kelly would trust. So this brings Kelly back to Portland.

@izzy says correctly Juliette was educated, that in itself would make one think she may not have wanted to know what was going to happen, but 2 and 2 still make 4 at this point she only wants Nick to suffer. So if Kelly was killed no problem as long as she could tell herself I didn't know. Now later we have a different question did she go back to kill Nick on the King's order, or did her role in what happen finally become clear to her and did she really want Nick to kill her?


Now we get to that point Juliette knew Nick likely wouldn't kill her but she had no problem trying to kill him did she. So using that point IMO says she knew what would happen to Kelly. If she could kill Nick who she knew so well shouldn't be a problem killing Kelly who she little.

Kenneth did a good job of pointing her in a direction and her taking her own lead. We have to give Kenneth credit he knew what buttons to push. He didn't push the Juliette button only the revenge button of the hexenbiest.

So many want to make Juliette's reaction to Adalind sleeping with Nick unreasonable. Yet in real life many have died for the exact same thing. A lot of domestic violence comes from infidelity. Juliette being extremely pissed because Adalind is having Nicks baby. Is not a strange or rare reaction even in the real world. Being a hexnebiest might have made it psychological easier for Juliette to actually do what she did. But her actions have been done by people in real life. How many guys the cheat have had the car damaged or destroyed. How many cheaters have been subjected to violence. The women's father or brother who beats the crap out of the guy that hurts their daughter or sister.

I would say it's like that movie about the secretary of the Nazi hierarch.She only cared about her job. should have heard something, since was in an important position.
Juliette crossed the line and could not be the same.she ruined her life herself,she would think that they would all see her strangely for becoming a "Hexenbiest".And that is lack of self-esteem.If you think that, you will always believe that others think alike

Quote:@izzy says correctly Juliette was educated, that in itself would make one think she may not have wanted to know what was going to happen, but 2 and 2 still make 4 at this point she only wants Nick to suffer. So if Kelly was killed no problem as long as she could tell herself I didn't know. Now later we have a different question did she go back to kill Nick on the King's order, or did her role in what happen finally become clear to her and did she really want Nick to kill her?


Now we get to that point Juliette knew Nick likely would kill her but she had no problem trying to kill him did she. So using that point IMO says she knew what would happen to Kelly. If she could kill Nick who she knew so well shouldn't be a problem killing Kelly who she little.

Your assumption would suggest that anyone planing an action that involved guns knows the victims would die. We know the guy going into the liquor store to rob it. Does not go in thinking they will shoot the clerk. Even the driver of the care in drive buys a lot of times don't think the others are going to really do it. The comments I keep reading are truly from people who have never actually been involved in deadly situations.

(12-23-2016, 07:30 AM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]So many want to make Juliette's reaction to Adalind sleeping with Nick unreasonable. Yet in real life many have died for the exact same thing. A lot of domestic violence comes from infidelity. Juliette being extremely pissed because Adalind is having Nicks baby. Is not a strange or rare reaction even in the real world. Being a hexnebiest might have made it psychological easier for Juliette to actually do what she did. But her actions have been done by people in real life. How many guys the cheat have had the car damaged or destroyed. How many cheaters have been subjected to violence. The women's father or brother who beats the crap out of the guy that hurts their daughter or sister.

I haven't seen people think Juliette's reaction to Adalind sleeping Nick as unreasonable. Anyone would be angry. She acted as to be expected, the problem is that she'd gone past the point of even caring for an unborn that was overboard for Juliette. She was unravelling too much and too fast.