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Full Version: Did Juliette understand that Kelly might be killed or did Kenneth fool her
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(07-29-2016, 02:52 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Hey David, it was Hexenette who killed Nick's Mother. FrankenEve is her corpse that HW and Meisner resuscitated after the murder.
New Guy you just can't help but exaggerate to try and make a point. All the does is point to your lack of credibility. Trubel shot Juliette. Juliette never died. She was not dead when they took her away. They showed her bandaged. Meisners comment was referring everyone thinking she was dead. Trubel said she was not trying to kill her. That was when Eve said Juliette would have killed Trubel. Your constant referring to her as FrankenEve shows you have a lack of comprehension of the show. Even the stick has not been shown to heal not resurrect. So where do you get the idea that HW has the ability to resurrect the dead.
Crash,
Are you saying David Greenwalt "exaggerated?"
http://www.lawyerherald.com/articles/240...racter.htm

Quote:Greenwalt told TV Line, "A long time... but to keep my word, Juliette is dead. She's coming back but it's not really Juliette anymore. Its' this new character, Eve who has not been brainwashed exactly, but she's been through some incredibly tough training where they broke her down to nothing.
Per David Greenwalt:
Juliette is dead.
Juliette is dead
Juliette is dead
Bottom line, your post is just more bunkum and balderdash.
bunkum and balderdash
bunkum and balderdash
New Guy
New Guy are you really that clueless that you can not understand Greenwalt's position. How he is framing the transition the Juliette character to the Eve character. Greenwalt's "Juliette is dead" is a metaphor for the Juliette character being dead. They mention a number of times in the show that Eve is Juliette. What has changed is her outlook. I know you have made many comments that you do not buy the change of personality. You have also been very adamant her change is the result of some traumatic abuse. That you can not understand what Greenwalt was saying explains why you do not understand how Eve came to be and who she is. I can not even imaging how you are going to understand the new Eve. It has been stated Juliette returns. Problem as long as she is a hexenbiest she can not be Juliette. Even if she goes back the being the vet Juliette Silverton she would not be Juliette. The main reason Juleitte was human as that made her vulnerable. Being vulnerable makes you cautious and protective. As a hexenbiest she has no vulnerabilities. Since the change she has always been the aggressor.
Quote:Per David Greenwalt:
Juliette is dead.
Juliette is dead
Juliette is dead
Bottom line, your post is just more bunkum and balderdash.
bunkum and balderdash
bunkum and balderdash

stamping your feet does not make it true. It only shows you do not have an argument so you shout to try and get your point across.
(07-29-2016, 04:14 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]New Guy are you really that clueless that you can not understand Greenwalt's position. How he is framing the transition the Juliette character to the Eve character. Greenwalt's "Juliette is dead" is a metaphor for the Juliette character being dead. They mention a number of times in the show that Eve is Juliette. What has changed is her outlook. I know you have made many comments that you do not buy the change of personality. You have also been very adamant her change is the result of some traumatic abuse. That you can not understand what Greenwalt was saying explains why you do not understand how Eve came to be and who she is. I can not even imaging how you are going to understand the new Eve. It has been stated Juliette returns. Problem as long as she is a hexenbiest she can not be Juliette. Even if she goes back the being the vet Juliette Silverton she would not be Juliette. The main reason Juleitte was human as that made her vulnerable. Being vulnerable makes you cautious and protective. As a hexenbiest she has no vulnerabilities. Since the change she has always been the aggressor.
Quote:Per David Greenwalt:
Juliette is dead.
Juliette is dead
Juliette is dead
Bottom line, your post is just more bunkum and balderdash.
bunkum and balderdash
bunkum and balderdash

stamping your feet does not make it true. It only shows you do not have an argument so you shout to try and get your point across.
Crash:
Greenwalt's "Juliette is dead" is a metaphor for the Juliette character being dead.
Metaphor? Really?
bunkum and balderdash!
New Guy
Quote:Crash:
Greenwalt's "Juliette is dead" is a metaphor for the Juliette character being dead.
Metaphor? Really?
bunkum and balderdash!
New Guy
Do you understand the meaning of metaphor. The fact is Eve and Juliette are the same physical person. It is obvious the body never died. No where in the show does anyone still see Juliette having died. Nick even argued with Trubel about knowing Juliette was still alive. What died was being a victim. Being a victim is who Juliette was. that they changed her name is also a metaphor. No where does the show say she changed her identity. She even admits Juliette is there she jsut doesn't go there.

New Guy I see you position. But then you sound like someone that believes commercials. You only need a scenario to fit your belief for it to be a fact. It was the same the of thinking the promoted the flat earth society. It is the same type of thinking the lead to heavens gate and Jones town. Both cases belief lead to death. You may no agree because you do not have their belief. But ask yourself would you die for a belief that no one could prove.
I think it was so:Juliette never died.Was just hurt when they took.Meisner said that Juliette to press.It is well known that a person can press another to believe what you want.when the police interrogates.sects.
(07-27-2016, 11:47 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Juliette was past the point of caring for anything except hurting everyone that hurt her. She trapped Kelly to help the royals get Diana (hurting Adalind), if Kelly died (hurting Nick) in the process, it would be no skin off her back. I mean she did intentionally try to kill Nick, Monroe and Adalind, Kelly was just a casualty to her biest intentions at that stage.

I agree with most of what you say here, rpmaluki. The only thing I think might be a difference is in your last sentence, ".........Kelly was just a casualty to her biest intentions at that stage."

In my opinion, Kelly was not a casualty, Kelly was the problem. She set the story wheels in motion by saying the royals and the resistance should not have Diana. But Kelly never explains why. She just decides to go rogue, and in doing so, shows a very dangerous side. The resistance and the royals would be insane if they assumed that because she's a Grimm, that means Kelly's a good mother. In reality, Kelly is a lot like parents who kidnap their own child and flee in desperation. There's no guarantee the child is going to come back alive because Kelly is a known killer. It wouldn't be unreasonable for either side to consider the possibility that Diana might end up dead, so Kelly's intent could come true: Neither the royals or the resistance will get her.
it seems silly to consider something like Kelly.She took Diana to look after her.his reaction when he saw Nick friend of a "Wesen" was not very good .change their attitude over time.she tells Nick very clear that the girl could be used as a weapon.depended on how it was raised.
(07-30-2016, 06:51 AM)brandon Wrote: [ -> ]she tells Nick very clear that the girl could be used as a weapon.depended on how it was raised.

She told Nick that the royals and the resistance shouldn't have Diana. She never explained to Nick why Adalind shouldn't raise her own child. Kelly may have intended on raising Diana to be a weapon that she could use for her own benefit.
Based on the show’s characterization of Kelly up to the kidnapping, I assumed her intentions were to teach Diana how & when to use her powers and for Kelly to have control over the how & when, but if Kelly determined Diana couldn’t be controlled she would kill Diana before old enough & powerful enough to stop her. I never considered motherly love or a compulsion to protect a vulnerable child as part of Kelly’s motivation.

Considering Diana’s rapid growth, Kelly was teaching her during formative years. Diana didn’t display any emotions after witnessing Kelly’s violent death or any mother/child connection to Kelly. She also didn’t display any fear when taken by strangers or interacting with the King.

Nature? Nurture? A little of both? To me, Diana behaved much the way Kelly would. Soldier down, move on and stay focused. Perhaps that’s how Kelly was teaching/training Diana, a Grimm/soldier training/preparing a future uber soldier. That Kelly would suddenly decide to give up her Grimm lifestyle to provide a stable & normal life for any child contradicts everything the show has revealed about the character.

---------------------

The Juliette is dead nonsense is the result of G & K behaving like adolescents concocting a cool idea instead of grown men spearheading a show. Instead of the silly teasing that Juliette is dead they should have left the character’s fate a mystery until Juliette’s transformation into Eve was shown to viewers in S5.

What might hit the cutting room floor because screen time was given to the Juliette/Eve transformation? Nick/Adalind scenes that didn’t even scratch the surface of character evolution? A lake monster? A giant rat?

And the biggest nonsense of all is that Juliette needed to become a new persona in order to gain control over her power & emotions and come to terms with her past.
(07-30-2016, 07:56 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]Based on the show’s characterization of Kelly up to the kidnapping, I assumed her intentions were to teach Diana how & when to use her powers and for Kelly to have control over the how & when, but if Kelly determined Diana couldn’t be controlled she would kill Diana before old enough & powerful enough to stop her. I never considered motherly love or a compulsion to protect a vulnerable child as part of Kelly’s motivation.

Considering Diana’s rapid growth, Kelly was teaching her during formative years. Diana didn’t display any emotions after witnessing Kelly’s violent death or any mother/child connection to Kelly. She also didn’t display any fear when taken by strangers or interacting with the King.

Nature? Nurture? A little of both? To me, Diana behaved much the way Kelly would. Soldier down, move on and stay focused. Perhaps that’s how Kelly was teaching/training Diana, a Grimm/soldier training/preparing a future uber soldier. That Kelly would suddenly decide to give up her Grimm lifestyle to provide a stable & normal life for any child contradicts everything the show has revealed about the character.

---------------------

The Juliette is dead nonsense is the result of G & K behaving like adolescents concocting a cool idea instead of grown men spearheading a show. Instead of the silly teasing that Juliette is dead they should have left the character’s fate a mystery until Juliette’s transformation into Eve was shown to viewers in S5.

What might hit the cutting room floor because screen time was given to the Juliette/Eve transformation? Nick/Adalind scenes that didn’t even scratch the surface of character evolution? A lake monster? A giant rat?

And the biggest nonsense of all is that Juliette needed to become a new persona in order to gain control over her power & emotions and come to terms with her past.
Hello Robyn,
IMO, the "Juliette is dead" was completely logical and provided proper consequence for her actions. The "nonsense" is Eve, aka FrankenEve. I shall always remember standing with my father beside my grandmother's grave and he said "death is permanent." My father was absolutely correct, but the Grimm writers make death a fantasy. I recall the red and black two headed snake that Elizabeth Lascelles pulled from her bag to resuscitate Sean Renard after he flatlined. She also froze time.
Grimm is part reality and part fantasy. The task for the writers is to blend the two in a way that attracts viewers. The return of Sean to life was explained by the fantasy snake, nonsense. The return of Juliette/Hexenette to life was not explained. The writers showed Trubel shooting two crossbow bolts into Hexenette, she falls into Nick's arms, calls him Nick with her final breath and dies in his arms. We are shown the blood from the wound that has filled her lung and coming from her mouth. Chavez sends in the HW crew that takes her cadaver and puts in the back of a vehicle. But was she actually dead?
Quote:Scene: Nick arrives at the loft, waking Trubel up and she quickly grabs a knife and stands up.

Trubel: [She breathes heavily and puts her knife away once she realizes it's just Nick] What's wrong?
Nick: I just saw Juliette.
Trubel: What?
Nick: She's alive, and you know it!
Trubel: No, Nick, I—
Nick: Tell me the truth!
Trubel: I swear to God I have no idea what happened to her!
Nick: But you knew she was alive.
Trubel: No. I mean, not for sure.
Nick: She's either dead, or she isn't!
Trubel: All I know is that she was alive when Chavez took her, but... I didn't know if she was gonna survive what they were gonna do to her.
Nick: And what was that?
Trubel: Break her.
. . .

[Flashback of Juliette gasping awake after her wounds were treated after she was shot by Trubel]
Meisner: You're dead, but you don't have to stay that way.
[Juliette gasps while trying to talk]
Meisner: It's going to be difficult to speak for a while.
[Juliette signals Meisner to get closer and he does. She tries to grab his throat, but Meisner quickly grabs her hand]
Meisner: You will learn how to focus that rage... [He smacks Juliette] if you survive. [He leaves]
So the writers declared Hexenette dead and Meisner tells her she is dead, but Nick is angry with Trubel for not telling him. Even Trubel is confused by it all and says "I swear to God I have no idea what happened to her! . . . All I know is that she was alive when Chavez took her."
IMO, the writers have no idea what happened to her. They tried hard to get the viewers to buy into the cockamamie story line that FrankenEve is some other character and Juliette is dead. Sure, Grimm is part fantasy, but if Juliette died then delete Eve from the show. If she didn't die then the writers need to confess and cut the bull about:
Quote:TVLINE | David and Jim, how long have you known you were going to bring Bitsie back?
GREENWALT | A long time… But to keep my word, [Juliette] is dead. She’s coming back, but it’s not really Juliette anymore.
New Guy
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