(07-27-2016, 10:07 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2016, 03:27 PM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]Taking into account Juliette’s intelligence/common sense and the type of intel Kenneth wanted from her, it’s reasonable that she at least considered the possibility. But Juliette lying to Nick doesn’t make sense. Juliette might have felt the weight of her actions once the Royals were gone and Kenneth was still MIA, but what would she gain by lying to Nick. It’s not like she’d expect him to immediately believe her or tell her as long as she didn’t know everything would be okay. Plus, Juliette never hid anything else she did. In fact, she enjoyed Nick knowing what she’d been up to since they parted.
Juliette being in the house during that entire confrontation made no sense. She was a valuable asset to the royals. Kenneth wouldn't have left her in the house where there was a possibility she could be killed. It makes me wonder if the original intent of the story was for Juliette to remain out of the episode until the very end, where she comes back to tell him she didn't know Kelly was going to be killed. That would have made complete sense if she was already with the king.
I would go another way "surprised?"
by now because the king is being attacked he knows Kenneth failed so he ask Juliette to kill Nick, because he figured Nick had killed Kenneth. Even with the in fighting in the royal families they could let something like that go. IMO
(07-27-2016, 10:13 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I would go another way "surprised?" by now because the king is being attacked he knows Kenneth failed so he ask Juliette to kill Nick, because he figured Nick had killed Kenneth. Even with the in fighting in the royal families they could let something like that go. IMO
Are you saying then that Juliette didn't know Kelly was going to be killed?
Juliette was past the point of caring for anything except hurting everyone that hurt her. She trapped Kelly to help the royals get Diana (hurting Adalind), if Kelly died (hurting Nick) in the process, it would be no skin off her back. I mean she did intentionally try to kill Nick, Monroe and Adalind, Kelly was just a casualty to her biest intentions at that stage.
(07-27-2016, 10:54 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-27-2016, 10:13 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I would go another way "surprised?" by now because the king is being attacked he knows Kenneth failed so he ask Juliette to kill Nick, because he figured Nick had killed Kenneth. Even with the in fighting in the royal families they could let something like that go. IMO
Are you saying then that Juliette didn't know Kelly was going to be killed?
Sorry I misread the first point you were talking about the scene where Kelly was kill and somehow I read into it the scene where she was going to kill Nick. Sorry a simple misreading. No I also said for myself I think she should have known Kelly was going to be killed but chose to have blind eye. Sorry for the first part must have had brain freeze. Sorry
(07-27-2016, 12:34 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]No I also said for myself I think she should have known Kelly was going to be killed but chose to have blind eye. Sorry for the first part must have had brain freeze. Sorry
Then in this instance, you're not looking at it as a fantasy, correct? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your definition of a fantasy, js, but if you look at this as not right and not wrong, there would be no leeway for saying Juliette should have known. She told Nick she didn't know. In the context of a fantasy, which is how you view Grimm, Juliette could not have known. Am I misinterpreting how you define a fantasy here?
(07-27-2016, 01:32 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-27-2016, 12:34 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]No I also said for myself I think she should have known Kelly was going to be killed but chose to have blind eye. Sorry for the first part must have had brain freeze. Sorry
Then in this instance, you're not looking at it as a fantasy, correct? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your definition of a fantasy, js, but if you look at this as not right and not wrong, there would be no leeway for saying Juliette should have known. She told Nick she didn't know. In the context of a fantasy, which is how you view Grimm, Juliette could not have known. Am I misinterpreting how you define a fantasy here?
In this view of fantasy I don't see right or wrong in what happened to Kelly and what did or did not Juliette knew. That is the storyline we are just debating the knowledge that Juliette had not is it is right or wrong. In the storyline I think Juliette chose not to know. So you can say she didn't know and you could be right, we are just debating should she have known just for debate. Fantasy can be debated but there is no right or wrong the viewer has to decide what applies. To me that is the fun of fantasy doesn't have to have any right or wrong just what we want to add to a scene.
That is why I like our debates because we see the series so differently. You like to see right and wrong, I like to guess what they were going for and debate it. That is fantasy to me the guessing so to speak.
When I watch Bones I'm looking at facts I can't make a question because this is to be only facts. Grimm is gray we make the facts to way we want them to be.
(07-27-2016, 01:54 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ][quote='irukandji' pid='33541' dateline='1469651566']
[quote='jsgrimm45' pid='33535' dateline='1469648071']
In this view of fantasy I don't see right or wrong in what happened to Kelly and what did or did not Juliette knew. That is the storyline we are just debating the knowledge that Juliette had not is it is right or wrong. In the storyline I think Juliette chose not to know. So you can say she didn't know and you could be right, we are just debating should she have known just for debate. Fantasy can be debated but there is no right or wrong the viewer has to decide what applies. To me that is the fun of fantasy doesn't have to have any right or wrong just what we want to add to a scene.
That is why I like our debates because we see the series so differently. You like to see right and wrong, I like to guess what they were going for and debate it. That is fantasy to me the guessing so to speak.
Well, actually, I wasn't seeing this in a view of right or wrong. I was looking at it from what we (the viewer) see. Juliette told Nick she didn't know Kenneth was going to kill Kelly (paraphrasing here). There is no right or wrong, she simply made a statement. In making the statement, then we as the viewer would have to go with the storyline that she didn't know. Our opinion in the matter doesn't count because we're simply looking at events as they occurred in the story. Maybe I'm still missing what you're trying to say when you view this as a fantasy.
What you people are arguing is would a reasonable person have known the possible out come?
The show never gave Juliette direct knowledge of what Kenneth was going to do. There are no prior examples of covert operations ending in death. Based on the level of common sense the characters have shown. It would not be reasonable the character would draw that inference. That would make them more aware then any other time on the show.
In the real world a cynical mind might look for the worst case scenario. But even in the real world using a gun to commit a crime, you do not think someone will die. The attitude is more with a gun no one will challenge you. That is why people use fake guns, they only want the intimidation factor.
Because the Royals have put death on the table when it comes to Diana. Death is a reasonable inference. Except on this show every character has shown a lack of common sense. And that is the problem. Juliette would have had to read between the lines to come to the conclusion that people would die. Reading between the lines is something that none of the character on the show has ever done. For Juliette to have made the inference that people think a reasonable person would make would not be keeping with the show.
IMO in the real world Juliette would have suspected something. In Grimm where the obvious is over looked or ignored. It is unresonable to think a character would read between the lines to figure something out.
(07-27-2016, 01:58 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-27-2016, 01:54 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ][quote='irukandji' pid='33541' dateline='1469651566']
[quote='jsgrimm45' pid='33535' dateline='1469648071']
In this view of fantasy I don't see right or wrong in what happened to Kelly and what did or did not Juliette knew. That is the storyline we are just debating the knowledge that Juliette had not is it is right or wrong. In the storyline I think Juliette chose not to know. So you can say she didn't know and you could be right, we are just debating should she have known just for debate. Fantasy can be debated but there is no right or wrong the viewer has to decide what applies. To me that is the fun of fantasy doesn't have to have any right or wrong just what we want to add to a scene.
That is why I like our debates because we see the series so differently. You like to see right and wrong, I like to guess what they were going for and debate it. That is fantasy to me the guessing so to speak.
Well, actually, I wasn't seeing this in a view of right or wrong. I was looking at it from what we (the viewer) see. Juliette told Nick she didn't know Kenneth was going to kill Kelly (paraphrasing here). There is no right or wrong, she simply made a statement. In making the statement, then we as the viewer would have to go with the storyline that she didn't know. Our opinion in the matter doesn't count because we're simply looking at events as they occurred in the story. Maybe I'm still missing what you're trying to say when you view this as a fantasy.
I think we are miscommunicating as I see it this way you say Juliette said she didn't know as a statement true. You take it as true as I see it I could be wrong but that is what I think you are saying. I don't take it as true or false but to debate I took the other side as if not it was because she chose not to know.
So in this case and in this way yes I guess you could say I stepped out of pure fantasy. I was a viewer and I didn't believe this was possible with all the planning she helped with. On the other hand to me that is what fantasy is the viewer adding their view your view is her statement my view is her actions where she created a fantasy world of her own not to know what would happen to Kelly.
With I see as fantasy is viewpoint in Grimm I can decide the viewpoint. Is Grimm real no we both would agree no tv series is real most of the time. Bones series I can't change the storyline because I'm not a scientist so I have no idea how much is correct or not, so I can't debate the series to me it is yes or no and I don't know which. Grimm I like because this one I can take either side to debate. I likely add some of my own fantasy ideas to the debates.
We debate the series often we almost never agree but we debate what we see that is the fun of the forum. See the other angle. Now there are times when someone posts something that changes my view or the will bring out an interesting question or subplot I totally missed.
If you and I both were Supernatural fan we would likely have more in common because that series is so fantasy related no connection to the real world we disagree in Grimm likely because it is a real city and a real police dept being used.
(07-27-2016, 02:57 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]What you people are arguing is would a reasonable person have known the possible out come?
The show never gave Juliette direct knowledge of what Kenneth was going to do. There are no prior examples of covert operations ending in death. Based on the level of common sense the characters have shown. It would not be reasonable the character would draw that inference. That would make them more aware then any other time on the show.
In the real world a cynical mind might look for the worst case scenario. But even in the real world using a gun to commit a crime, you do not think someone will die. The attitude is more with a gun no one will challenge you. That is why people use fake guns, they only want the intimidation factor.
Because the Royals have put death on the table when it comes to Diana. Death is a reasonable inference. Except on this show every character has shown a lack of common sense. And that is the problem. Juliette would have had to read between the lines to come to the conclusion that people would die. Reading between the lines is something that none of the character on the show has ever done. For Juliette to have made the inference that people think a reasonable person would make would not be keeping with the show.
IMO in the real world Juliette would have suspected something. In Grimm where the obvious is over looked or ignored. It is unresonable to think a character would read between the lines to figure something out.
That is correct the series never show any common sense.
Hi Forum,
Do any of the characters in Grimm lie? This article takes the position that "we all tell lies."
http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index....es_fr.html
IMO, Hexenette lied to Nick when (in 4.22 end) she said "I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that." She was taunting him about love and death. In the article that fits with reasons 3, 4, 7 and 8.
Writers use lying as a tool, such as in "Knoist and His Three Sons" by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm:
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type1965.html
Some may see her as a kind, compassionate, trustworthy, virtuous woman, but I see her as just the opposite. IMO, the writers had her lie to Nick for viewers to see her as an even more heinous villain. The character Eve is based on the lie that Juliette is dead.
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