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Full Version: Did Juliette understand that Kelly might be killed or did Kenneth fool her
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(03-09-2016, 06:31 PM)Jizam Wrote: [ -> ]While im sure they never flat out told her they were going to kill Kelly. She never actually inquired about their plans for Kelly anyways. And she hid upstairs the entire time so I'm pretty sure she had an idea of what was going to happen.

I don't think Juliette was hiding upstairs. I think she was told to go upstairs.
Hello Forum,
The point of this thread is to determine "Did Juliette understand that Kelly might be killed or did Kenneth fool her."
Kenneth's Mission included the abduction of Diana. That was a major objective of King Frederick. Did the king have other objectives for Kenneth?
From the Grimm Wiki:
Quote:Kenneth brought Diana and Juliette to a rented gated compound where Frederick was. He could hardly believe seeing Diana and marveled at how much Diana had grown. Kenneth introduced him to Juliette, who Frederick thanked and told that a new life awaited her in Vienna. He then beckoned Diana over to him and hugged her, saying that she was now where she belonged. Rispoli then called Kenneth, and Frederick told him to put the call on speaker so he could be a part of their celebration. However, Rispoli broke the bad news that the Grimm got away, and Frederick ordered Kenneth to go do his job while Juliette stayed in the rental compound. After Kenneth left, he asked Juliette what Nick was like, and she responded, "He won't stop."
After the murder of Kelly the script of the car scene (emphasis added):
Quote:Scene: Kenneth, Juliette, and Diana are in the car after leaving the house, as Kenneth talks to Rispoli on the phone.

Rispoli: Burkhardt is in the house.
Kenneth: Kill him.
Rispoli: He's not alone. There are two people with him.
Kenneth: Doesn't matter, kill them all. [He hangs up. To Juliette] You're good with children. She's rather taken with you.
Then at the Royal Rental:
Quote:Scene: Kenneth, Juliette, and Diana arrive at a gated compound and are let through the gates once the guard sees Kenneth.

Juliette: What is this place?
Kenneth: It's a rental.

Scene: Kenneth, Juliette, and Diana go to the room where King Renard is.

Frederick: Is this really my granddaughter?
Kenneth: It is.
Frederick: I can hardly believe it. Look how much she's grown in such a short time. She truly is special.
Kenneth: May I present Miss Juliette Silverton, without whose help this would not have been possible. Juliette, this is King Frederick Von—
Frederick: That's plenty. I cannot thank you enough. You will be well taken care of. A whole new life awaits you in Vienna. I've always had a soft spot for Hexenbiests. [To Diana] Look at you. You are so beautiful. Come give your grandfather a hug.
[Diana hesitates at first, but she goes over to the King]
Frederick: [Chuckling] Oh, how I have longed to hold this child. At last, where she belongs. [He calls a woman over. To Kenneth and Juliette] You've made me a very happy old man. [To the woman] Feed and bathe her. Dress her properly.
[Kenneth's phone rings]
Woman: Your Majesty.
Frederick: Be sure she's ready to travel.
Woman: [To Diana] Come down. [She takes Diana with her]
Kenneth: It's Rispoli.
Frederick: Put him on speaker. He should be part of our celebration.
Kenneth: [Answering the phone] You're on speaker with the King who would like to congratulate you on a job well done.
Rispoli: We've had a setback. The Grimm got away.
Kenneth: Where is he?
Rispoli: We don't know. We're searching the area now.
Kenneth: Clear everyone out, meet me back at the hotel, and we'll deal with this. [He hangs up. To the King] I promise I'll take care of the Grimm.
Frederick: I suggest you keep that promise.
Kenneth: [To Juliette] Where would he be?
Juliette: He's looking for me.
Kenneth: Then you're coming with me.
Frederick: She stays here. She's done her job, and now you do yours. [Kenneth leaves]
Frederick: So... what is this Grimm like?
Juliette: He won't stop.
In the car when Kenneth says "Kill him" (Nick) and "kill them all" (Nick, Hank and Trubel) is there any question about his intent to kill?
When Rispoli says "We've had a setback. The Grimm got away," the king sends Kenneth to do his "job." It is clear Kenneth's "job" is murder. The king likely knows Kelly has been murdered and decapitated. Kenneth presents Hexenette as "May I present Miss Juliette Silverton, without whose help this would not have been possible."
Is there any doubt the king was pleased to have Diana? Is there any doubt the king wants Nick killed? Why is there doubt that the king wanted Kelly killed also? If part of the "job" was to kill Kelly then the king gave the order, Kenneth laid out the details and recruited Hexenette to betray Kelly TO HER DEATH. The betrayal, ambush and murder of Kelly required detailed plans. It is a fact that Kenneth and Hexenette laid out the plans for the betrayal at the hotel. The house floor plan and information about the neighbors was not needed for the betrayal. However it was used extensively in the murders. Hexenette provided that information and should have known why Kenneth wanted it. Kenneth and the Verrat thugs knew how to use it, so why does Hexenett claim she didn't know? Because she is a liar. She lied to Kelly. She was killed. She lied to Nick. She tried to kill him.
New Guy
Quote:That realization was so all-consuming, she had to psychologically retreat behind the "Eve" persona to remain functional.

That is exactly how I see the Eve persona.

She may not of intended and even knew what was going to happen. But Juliette would have guilt that she maybe could have prevented or stopped it, but did not even try. Do I fault her for that no. No more then I would fault someone in real life that is witnessing a crime and does not step in. Even if I was the victim. I would hope someone would help, but would not expect it. Big city living i guess has jaded my outlook.
I'm still waiting to hear the explanation behind why she would lie to Nick.
Quote:Kenneth laid out the details and recruited Hexenette to betray Kelly TO HER DEATH.

That is a statement that has no facts to back it up. You continue to sight conversation after the fact. Hind sight is not knowledge. Consider this, in the rental when Kenneth got ready to finish his job. Juliette made no move to go and help. Even the King said SHE DID HER JOB. Her job was to get Diana. If her job was to kill, the King would have sent her with Kenneth to finish it. CAn yo uargue Kenneth intent and job was to kill, yes their are points that could support that. But Kenneth is not Juliette. Sounds like you are judging Juliette by her association.

You want to hang on to she lied. Name one other statement she lied about. Calling for Kelly is a request not a statement. In five season Juliette and now Eve have never made a false statement and I challenge you to quote one.
Even when she was hiding the fact she was a hexenbiest from Nick she did not make any false statements. She replied everything was Ok. That is not a lie. At the time Sean was setting up a meet with henrietta. So she was hoping everything would be fine. With the manticor she said he missed, he did.

Going back and forth picking apart statements you will never prove a negative. You are trying to argue you know what she was thinking. But more then that is the writers intent. The writers went out of their way to provide Juliette with and exit from Juliette so she could become Eve. They also provided reasons so Juliette could not be seen as a demon. The gave her an out about the trailer with "I went a little over board" the even setup the situation with a scenario that must people would understand why she was mad. "Your boyfriend is having another women's baby" cliche but I see they felt that would be a reason most people would understand. They follow it up with her wanting to replace the books. The have her reject the Royals lucrative offer in favor of suicide by cop. They also have her apologize, and show remorse for what happened. They even have her apologize for Nick's lack of closure. They then put her on the single focused path of good.
(03-09-2016, 09:06 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like you are judging Juliette by her association.

And it sounds to me like your character bias is beginning to run amok.
Quote:And it sounds to me like your character bias is beginning to run amok.

I point out inaccurate assumptions. The statement, she lied. Show me where the writers have had her lie. Without past patterns, or definitive proof, how can you make a current determination.
Bias is a statement without foundation. People felt the world was flat. They even sited anecdotal evidence to support their position. Anecdotal evidence base on false observation does not make something true. You look outside the ground is wet. Saying it rained does not make it true. Even if you heard the thunder in the background. You read the news it says it rained. Saying I told you so does not prove your position, if the paper was talking about later that evening. Did it rain yes just not when you where looking out the window. This is how I see the position that Juliette knew being defended. Take this statement "recruited Hexenette to betray Kelly TO HER DEATH". I challenge anyone to quote where it was said or even implied that death was a consideration. Nick's opinion is just that an opinion. Nick was under the opinion she set them up at the factory. Nick even told Hank as much. We know that was false. Which is a far cry from a lie.
(03-09-2016, 09:45 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:And it sounds to me like your character bias is beginning to run amok.

I point out inaccurate assumptions. The statement, she lied. Show me where the writers have had her lie. Without past patterns, or definitive proof, how can you make a current determination.
Bias is a statement without foundation. People felt the world was flat. They even sited anecdotal evidence to support their position. Anecdotal evidence base on false observation does not make something true. You look outside the ground is wet. Saying it rained does not make it true. Even if you heard the thunder in the background. You read the news it says it rained. Saying I told you so does not prove your position, if the paper was talking about later that evening. Did it rain yes just not when you where looking out the window. This is how I see the position that Juliette knew being defended. Take this statement "recruited Hexenette to betray Kelly TO HER DEATH". I challenge anyone to quote where it was said or even implied that death was a consideration. Nick's opinion is just that an opinion. Nick was under the opinion she set them up at the factory. Nick even told Hank as much. We know that was false. Which is a far cry from a lie.
Nick when he was talking about Eve/Juliette setup to Hank in season 5 was the 2 bodyguards as she wanted to test Nick. They knew who setup them up at the factory Xavier and Billy. Eve had none thing to do with the factory setup other than save them.
Syscrash,
Although I have provided the "betrayal email" previously you seem to have failed to read it. Your contention:
Quote:I point out inaccurate assumptions. The statement, she lied. Show me where the writers have had her lie. Without past patterns, or definitive proof, how can you make a current determination.
Bias is a statement without foundation.
is vapid and ignores facts. Here is the betrayal email and reply verbatim:
Quote:From: <Juliette>

To: [email protected]

Kelly,

Nick’s in trouble. If you don’t come, he may be killed. The house is safe.

Juliette

…. {reply}

On my way.
1. Nick’s in trouble. - Lie. He was with Hank and Trubel.
2. If you don’t come, he may be killed. - Lie. Hank and Trubel show no intent to kill Nick. Quite the contrary!
3. The house is safe. - Lie. Hexenette has provided the floor plans to Kenneth that will prove valuable in the murder of Kelly. The house will be Diana's place of abduction and Kelly's death trap.
The entire email was a lie. A truthful email would be something like:

Kelly,

Did Nick tell you I am now a Hexenbiest?
I am working for the Royals. King Frederick is in Portland and has his nephew Kenneth and several Verrat here to capture Diana and bring her to him.
I know you trust me, so bring Diana to Nick's house.
By the way, you should be proud of how I set Marie's trailer on fire and destroyed those silly Grimm books and toys.

Juliette

. . . .

Can you see the difference between lies and truth?

New Guy

(03-10-2016, 05:05 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2016, 09:45 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:And it sounds to me like your character bias is beginning to run amok.

I point out inaccurate assumptions. The statement, she lied. Show me where the writers have had her lie. Without past patterns, or definitive proof, how can you make a current determination.
Bias is a statement without foundation. People felt the world was flat. They even sited anecdotal evidence to support their position. Anecdotal evidence base on false observation does not make something true. You look outside the ground is wet. Saying it rained does not make it true. Even if you heard the thunder in the background. You read the news it says it rained. Saying I told you so does not prove your position, if the paper was talking about later that evening. Did it rain yes just not when you where looking out the window. This is how I see the position that Juliette knew being defended. Take this statement "recruited Hexenette to betray Kelly TO HER DEATH". I challenge anyone to quote where it was said or even implied that death was a consideration. Nick's opinion is just that an opinion. Nick was under the opinion she set them up at the factory. Nick even told Hank as much. We know that was false. Which is a far cry from a lie.
Nick when he was talking about Eve/Juliette setup to Hank in season 5 was the 2 bodyguards as she wanted to test Nick. They knew who setup them up at the factory Xavier and Billy. Eve had none thing to do with the factory setup other than save them.
May I join this discussion? In this short game of facts:
Syscrash: False statement about who did the factory "set up"
jsgrimm45: Correct. The "set up" of Nick was the restaurant attack by 2 body guards.
Score: JS = 1. Sys = 0.
Now touch gloves and return to your corners.
New Guy
I have a question.

Why would Juliette email Kelly and tell her, 'the house is safe'? I can't speak for anyone else, but that to me, would set alarm bells ringing.

It almost sounds like Juliette might be trying to warn Kelly?
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