Quote:Robyn wrote:
I agree that because the actor couldn’t/wouldn’t return long enough to shoot a scene or two, G & K killed the character as quickly as possible and in a manner that would cause as much trauma to Nick as possible. But doing it the way they did, they completely took Kelly out of character. She was always presented as being totally aware and in control of her surroundings, she always had preplanned entrance and exit strategies. And G & K totally dismissed that established character trait. So it makes it difficult to speculate what Kelly was thinking or planning when she arrived in Portland. The show could have easily had Kelly call Nick when she arrived in Portland and something happen to make her believe he was fighting for his life/in immediate danger, which spurred her to throw caution to the wind and rush to Nick’s aid.
This didn't only happen with Kelly, Robyn. MEM's exit threw the entire season finale out of balance. If you think about it, Juliette wouldn't have needed to be there. In fact, she was a valuable asset to the royalty so she shouldn't have been there. She already did what she needed to do. There was no reason why a boatload of verrat would need to be present simply for Kelly. There was no reason to scope out the neighborhood and kill certain neighbors ahead of time. All Kenneth had to do was shoot Kelly as she came in the door, grab Diana, and head out.
(07-19-2016, 05:27 PM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2016, 04:48 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I tend to think there might have been other things going and those things are what brought Kelly to Nick's house, but I can't prove them. What it looks like to me is that Juliette was set up to take the fall on this, probably so that she wouldn't have any alternative but to join HW.
This is interesting, and I think maybe touched on in another discussion. To me it’s a likely scenario, and the trail of events supports it.
Someone in the Resistance hired Kelly to take Adalind and the baby to the next scheduled agent/location. Venetian confronted Renard about a rumor that the Resistance took the baby from Viktor while in Portland. Viktor made a deal with the Resistance - Diana in exchange for killing the King.
If the Resistance hadn’t already figured out Kelly took the baby, Viktor’s deal brought them up to speed. Meisner was already working with HW at that point. Trubel confirmed HW had Nick & the others under surveillance for a while and knew about Juliette and Adalind & the second pregnancy.
It’s completely reasonable that Meisner/the Resistance/HW decided to sacrifice, or at least gamble Kelly’s survival, in order to get Diana back in their possession and hopefully gain a super powerful agent/soldier. Meisner is the type that could look Nick in the eye and extend genuine concern for his loss, but never be compelled to tell him the facts surrounding his mother’s death.
(03-13-2016, 04:48 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2016, 04:23 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Note : this question is also to show that the show runners put elements in the show to allow us to believe that Juliette was manipulating Nick. The same works for Adelaind...
Henrietta did say that, but I continue to look at Juliette's actions. She didn't once manipulate Nick during the time she was becoming a hexenbiest and she certainly had many opportunities to do so. Look at the time when she woged and he was repulsed. All she would have had to do was stay in her human form, kiss the crap out of him, and he would have been putty in her hands. In my opinion, the encounter in the spice shop would have been a tremendous opportunity for Juliette to show just how manipulative she could be. She could have had all of the scoobies under control.
Yet she went in there more curious than anything to see what the they were up to. Even then, she only defended herself when she viewed their actions as an attack. She never used manipulation as a weapon.
And in thinking about this one factor, this might be another reason why Nick believed her when she said she didn't know Kenneth was going to murder Kelly. She never tried to use obvious and much more persuasive hexenbiest measures on him.
I agree Juliette is never seen trying to influence how Nick feels about her and the Hexenbiest dilemma. But how much would manipulating Nick benefit Juliette long term? Does the manipulation have lasting effects? Once Juliette left the Spice Shop would she still have control over Nick or would it wear off? If I remember correctly, the Hexenbiests at the law firm manipulated people into contract agreements, but Adalind wasn’t able to manipulate Hank’s feelings for her. I don’t recall Adalind ever trying to manipulate Nick - and that would have come in handy just before he killed her Hexenbiest.
(03-13-2016, 02:45 PM)Belle Wrote: [ -> ]All this back and forth is getting crazy, but if you step back there are only two possibilities:
1- Juliette knew Kenneth was going to kill Nick's mother
2- Juliette is a complete and total moron because only a complete and total moron would not have known what Kenneth was planning
So that's all there is.
Juliette is either a monster devoid of feelings and morals or Juliette is an idiot who is too dumb to be trusted.
She's dumb or she's evil, there really is no other option unless you want to consider the idea that she's both dumb and evil.
Kenneth’s mind game working so easily on Juliette made me immediately think of how easy it was for Renard to influence/control Adalind. Adalind was so desperate to belong she allowed herself to be used by people like Renard and her mother. When Kenneth approached Juliette, she was in a similar situation - an outcast without a support group. Regardless of what he might expect in return, Kenneth was inviting Juliette into his inner circle.
(07-19-2016, 09:33 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I have a question. What was Kelly planning? In other words, in your opinion, what was going through her mind when she got the email?
I agree that because the actor couldn’t/wouldn’t return long enough to shoot a scene or two, G & K killed the character as quickly as possible and in a manner that would cause as much trauma to Nick as possible. But doing it the way they did, they completely took Kelly out of character. She was always presented as being totally aware and in control of her surroundings, she always had preplanned entrance and exit strategies. And G & K totally dismissed that established character trait. So it makes it difficult to speculate what Kelly was thinking or planning when she arrived in Portland. The show could have easily had Kelly call Nick when she arrived in Portland and something happen to make her believe he was fighting for his life/in immediate danger, which spurred her to throw caution to the wind and rush to Nick’s aid.
(07-19-2016, 09:33 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ]There's another alternative: Juliette simply deluded herself into thinking Kenneth would just knock Kelly out cold, or something along those lines. Hexenbiests are supposed to be notorious liars, so it would only make sense for them to lie to themselves as well.
Another alternative is that Juliette had become completely ambivalent to life & death and the people around her. It’s not so much that she reasoned Kelly could die or could handle Kenneth & the Verrat, but rather, maybe she wasn’t compelled to consider it one way or the other.
The only thing I would add to this would be if Meisner knew Kelly was a Grimm (likely) than as long a Diana was off the board HW would have be happy. Now we do have to wonder how far in advance did HW know Diana would be with Kelly? That may be the best question, I could see then setting up the King but should we look at HW could have help Kelly but didn't? Were they aware of the plan at Nick's house? Did Meisner have the people in Portland at the time to help Kelly or was at the time HW wasn't in Portland? Was this the time Chavez decided Portland may become important?
(07-19-2016, 08:05 PM)Dian Mclean Wrote: [ -> ]Yes she was indirectly responsible for her death.
"Indirectly?" If Juliette hadn't sent that email, this whole disaster would never have gone down! Juliette violated Kelly's trust in her so she could be handed over to the Royals on a silver platter! Seems pretty direct to me.
(I'll acknowledge that the writers intentionally turned Kelly into an idiot for convenience's sake. As irukandji pointed out, G&K pick up or drop character traits at whim. You can almost imagine them writing a Batman comic book, and have Batman walk into a stupidly obvious trap set by the Riddler simply because that's what they want him to do. If Kelly's character had remained consistent, Juliette and Kenneth's ploy would have blown up in their faces.)
(07-20-2016, 06:10 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2016, 08:05 PM)Dian Mclean Wrote: [ -> ]Yes she was indirectly responsible for her death.
"Indirectly?" If Juliette hadn't sent that email, this whole disaster would never have gone down! Juliette violated Kelly's trust in her so she could be handed over to the Royals on a silver platter! Seems pretty direct to me.
(I'll acknowledge that the writers intentionally turned Kelly into an idiot for convenience's sake. As irukandji pointed out, G&K pick up or drop character traits at whim. You can almost imagine them writing a Batman comic book, and have Batman walk into a stupidly obvious trap set by the Riddler simply because that's what they want him to do. If Kelly's character had remained consistent, Juliette and Kenneth's ploy would have blown up in their faces.)
Hi Hex,
So after Juliette and Kenneth's ploy blows up in their faces what does Kelly Dēcapitāre Extraordinaire do with them? Yes!
New Guy
(07-20-2016, 06:10 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2016, 08:05 PM)Dian Mclean Wrote: [ -> ]Yes she was indirectly responsible for her death.
"Indirectly?" If Juliette hadn't sent that email, this whole disaster would never have gone down! Juliette violated Kelly's trust in her so she could be handed over to the Royals on a silver platter! Seems pretty direct to me.
(I'll acknowledge that the writers intentionally turned Kelly into an idiot for convenience's sake. As irukandji pointed out, G&K pick up or drop character traits at whim. You can almost imagine them writing a Batman comic book, and have Batman walk into a stupidly obvious trap set by the Riddler simply because that's what they want him to do. If Kelly's character had remained consistent, Juliette and Kenneth's ploy would have blown up in their faces.)
I stand corrected, she literally handed Kelly to Kenneth on a silver platter. Kelly wasn't a stupid lady, she trusted what Juliette emailed her about Nick and she did what she thought she needed to do and died in the process. Like I stated before Juliette did all this out of jealously, and anger. I think Kenneth would still find a way to get to Kelly.
(07-21-2016, 04:46 AM)Dian Mclean Wrote: [ -> ]Kelly wasn't a stupid lady, she trusted what Juliette emailed her about Nick and she did what she thought she needed to do and died in the process. Like I stated before Juliette did all this out of jealously, and anger. I think Kenneth would still find a way to get to Kelly.
It might not be about trust, Dian. Kelly looks as dumb as a bag of rocks in the episode, but what if she was working for HW? What if they told her she had to be prepared to be killed? Would she do it?
Quote:jsgrimm45 wrote
The only thing I would add to this would be if Meisner knew Kelly was a Grimm (likely) than as long a Diana was off the board HW would have be happy. Now we do have to wonder how far in advance did HW know Diana would be with Kelly? That may be the best question, I could see then setting up the King but should we look at HW could have help Kelly but didn't? Were they aware of the plan at Nick's house? Did Meisner have the people in Portland at the time to help Kelly or was at the time HW wasn't in Portland? Was this the time Chavez decided Portland may become important?
I think they knew, js, and it's a very likely scenario that Kelly might have been working for them.
(07-21-2016, 06:12 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2016, 04:46 AM)Dian Mclean Wrote: [ -> ]Kelly wasn't a stupid lady, she trusted what Juliette emailed her about Nick and she did what she thought she needed to do and died in the process. Like I stated before Juliette did all this out of jealously, and anger. I think Kenneth would still find a way to get to Kelly.
It might not be about trust, Dian. Kelly looks as dumb as a bag of rocks in the episode, but what if she was working for HW? What if they told her she had to be prepared to be killed? Would she do it?
Quote:jsgrimm45 wrote
The only thing I would add to this would be if Meisner knew Kelly was a Grimm (likely) than as long a Diana was off the board HW would have be happy. Now we do have to wonder how far in advance did HW know Diana would be with Kelly? That may be the best question, I could see then setting up the King but should we look at HW could have help Kelly but didn't? Were they aware of the plan at Nick's house? Did Meisner have the people in Portland at the time to help Kelly or was at the time HW wasn't in Portland? Was this the time Chavez decided Portland may become important?
I think they knew, js, and it's a very likely scenario that Kelly might have been working for them.
I agree Kelly would have needed an income so HW could have given her that to support her and Diana. We also know the deal with Viktor was to kill the King and the resistance were to get Diana. Now the question did Kelly bring Diana knowing that the resistance wasn't going to get Diana but to turn her over to HW?
Can we assume HW plan was for Kelly to met Meisner and give him Diana and Juliette messed up the first plan, but helping Kenneth? So Meisner had to go to plan B? Who may have helped with plan B? We all know plan A never works haha.
(07-21-2016, 07:20 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Kelly would have needed an income so HW could have given her that to support her and Diana. We also know the deal with Viktor was to kill the King and the resistance were to get Diana. Now the question did Kelly bring Diana knowing that the resistance wasn't going to get Diana but to turn her over to HW?
Can we assume HW plan was for Kelly to met Meisner and give him Diana and Juliette messed up the first plan, but helping Kenneth? So Meisner had to go to plan B? Who may have helped with plan B? We all know plan A never works haha.
My first thought goes back to Kenneth. Did he really just make a wild guess that Kelly had Diana? Or was he tipped off by someone?
(07-21-2016, 07:46 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2016, 07:20 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Kelly would have needed an income so HW could have given her that to support her and Diana. We also know the deal with Viktor was to kill the King and the resistance were to get Diana. Now the question did Kelly bring Diana knowing that the resistance wasn't going to get Diana but to turn her over to HW?
Can we assume HW plan was for Kelly to met Meisner and give him Diana and Juliette messed up the first plan, but helping Kenneth? So Meisner had to go to plan B? Who may have helped with plan B? We all know plan A never works haha.
My first thought goes back to Kenneth. Did he really just make a wild guess that Kelly had Diana? Or was he tipped off by someone?
You must have missed that episode. Viktor and Raspoli figured it out from what Adalind told them when they let her out of the cell.
(07-21-2016, 07:49 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2016, 07:46 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2016, 07:20 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Kelly would have needed an income so HW could have given her that to support her and Diana. We also know the deal with Viktor was to kill the King and the resistance were to get Diana. Now the question did Kelly bring Diana knowing that the resistance wasn't going to get Diana but to turn her over to HW?
Can we assume HW plan was for Kelly to met Meisner and give him Diana and Juliette messed up the first plan, but helping Kenneth? So Meisner had to go to plan B? Who may have helped with plan B? We all know plan A never works haha.
My first thought goes back to Kenneth. Did he really just make a wild guess that Kelly had Diana? Or was he tipped off by someone?
You must have missed that episode. Viktor and Raspoli figured it out from what Adalind told them when they let her out of the cell.
It's funny. You just admitted to a mistake in a thread today and no one criticized you for it. When others make a mistake, why do you insist on criticizing them for it? If it was only me, I could understand it, but it's not. Lately all I've read from you is snarky remarks, insults, and rants. If you know the episode, stand by your word. Help out and explain it. You were the one who said you were going to lead by example. So lead by example.