(03-13-2016, 02:52 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2016, 02:36 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to approach this from a different angle, Adriano. There's a conversation that takes place between Adalind and Nick. It occurs after Adalind makes the suppression potion and tests it on herself. So she's without her powers.
Adalind tells Nick that she's done a lot of bad things, but she didn't know Juliette was going to turn into a hexenbiest. Using the logic you've put forth in your argument, the show didn't give a clear answer about whether Adalind knew or not.
Yet, I don't recall one single argument from anyone stating Adalind is a hexenbiest, she had to know. Or, she's a liar, she just had to positively know. Or, simply how could she not know?
Everyone believed her. Why? Because Nick believed her. It's the same principle with Juliette. Nick believed her when she said she didn't know what Kenneth was going to do.
I was with you up the last sentence that may be the clue needed for me I don't think Nick did believe her, I think to this day he doesn't believes her on that. The trailer, the shop, the messed up bed, figuring out the email Nick sees a setup and Kelly dead. look at the restaurant scene as Eve.
(03-13-2016, 02:45 PM)Belle Wrote: [ -> ]All this back and forth is getting crazy, but if you step back there are only two possibilities:
1- Juliette knew Kenneth was going to kill Nick's mother
2- Juliette is a complete and total moron because only a complete and total moron would not have known what Kenneth was planning
So that's all there is.
Juliette is either a monster devoid of feelings and morals or Juliette is an idiot who is too dumb to be trusted.
She's dumb or she's evil, there really is no other option unless you want to consider the idea that she's both dumb and evil.
i agree with you but have to add maybe just maybe she hoped it wouldn't happen.
Hoping Kenneth wouldn't do what she had to know he was planning to do would merely be further proof of her stupidity, so in that case I guess Juliette would be both stupid and evil.
(03-13-2016, 03:04 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2016, 03:01 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't mean lies only the things getting up to the end was why Nick didn't believe her the total sum of events.
I'm not following. The only reason Nick wouldn't believe her is if she lied to him and he called her on it.
If someone burned down a trailer, fired a gun at a friend, make a point of showing they had sex in their bed, sent and email to get your mother to get her to Portland, myself if it is me and she says it's night I'm not going to believe it until I look. You can lie and break a trust or you can do things to break the trust, I'm just saying by this point Juliette the things she done has broken the trust. She doesn't have to have lied the events has taken Nick's trust in what she says, I may be true I'm not debating that I just can't believe her any longer no matter what she says.
"The only reason Nick wouldn't believe her is if she lied to him and he called her on it."
Seriously!?
What kind of wacko pseudo logic is that?
Not everyone in Germany went out of their way to call Hitler a liar, but that doesn't mean they all thought he was a stand-up guy.
Juliette has lied to Nick, repeatedly.
He has called her on it in the past.
The fact that Nick isn't bother to call Juliette on her BS anymore doesn't mean he believes her.
It just means he sick to death of her and has moved on.
(03-13-2016, 03:16 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]If someone burned down a trailer, fired a gun at a friend, make a point of showing they had sex in their bed, sent and email to get your mother to get her to Portland, myself if it is me and she says it's night I'm not going to believe it until I look. You can lie and break a trust or you can do things to break the trust, I'm just saying by this point Juliette the things she done has broken the trust. She doesn't have to have lied the events has taken Nick's trust in what she says, I may be true I'm not debating that I just can't believe her any longer no matter what she says.
Here are my thoughts:
Burning down the trailer-She admitted to Nick she burned it down. She wasn't lying there.
Messed up bed-JS, Nick and Juliette were a done deal by the time that scene rolls around. Nick had already taken down the pictures of her. No trust really broken there are all. All she was doing is telling Nick he wasn't special to her anymore. Beside that, they weren't married and weren't engaged.
Sending the email to Kelly-That's a trust breaker, to be sure. I just don't see how it adds up to definite proof that Juliette knew Kenneth was going to murder Kelly.
The shop-There are some variables there that cancel this out as being solely Juliette breaking Nick's trust. I think both Hank and Nick pulling their guns on her first definitely shows broken trust. There was no need for the big guns (Nick, Hank) or for Monroe to be there at all.
I feel like she had to know. She either thought Kelly would be killed or she thought Nick was the target. She's the one who lured Kelly to Portland, so regardless of how much of Kenneth's plan she was privy to, she AT LEAST knew she was putting both Nick and his mother in grave danger. I suspect she knew full well that Kelly's death was a likely probability. When she was talking to Nick, right before Trubel shot her, she was planning on killing Nick right then and there. There's no doubt in my mind that she was out for blood and trying to hurt Nick in every and any way possible.
(03-13-2016, 02:36 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to approach this from a different angle, Adriano. There's a conversation that takes place between Adalind and Nick. It occurs after Adalind makes the suppression potion and tests it on herself. So she's without her powers.
Adalind tells Nick that she's done a lot of bad things, but she didn't know Juliette was going to turn into a hexenbiest. Using the logic you've put forth in your argument, the show didn't give a clear answer about whether Adalind knew or not.
Yet, I don't recall one single argument from anyone stating Adalind is a hexenbiest, she had to know. Or, she's a liar, she just had to positively know. Or, simply how could she not know?
Everyone believed her. Why? Because Nick believed her. It's the same principle with Juliette. Nick believed her when she said she didn't know what Kenneth was going to do.
Actually I don't remember about if Adelaind was telling the truth it not to Nick as we debate about Juliette.
But I believe my argument woks here also. Someone said (sorry but I don't remember if it was you who wrote this) that maybe Adelaind put a trigger in spell if someone tried to give Nick's power back. I would be one to buy this theory. I think that in time I posted against it but I think this is a valid theory.
Well... My point is that for Adelaind we can use the same arguments used to Juliette. Some will say she knows... Some will says she doesn't .. But the show give us elements to believe both. Don't out think?
Quote:The shop-There are some variables there that cancel this out as being solely Juliette breaking Nick's trust. I think both Hank and Nick pulling their guns on her first definitely shows broken trust.
That is the key factore. They pulled their guns on her. No one talks about that. Her point was letting them know that was a stupid idea. That they thought their guns would protect them. She was never out to hurt some one just prove they are idiots. The next time Nick and Hank went after her Hank even admitted using a gun is a bad idea.
Nick denial is the part that gets me. He is living with a hexenbiest and still has no idea what he is up against. In the restaurant he is pushing her buttons. Antagonizing someone that just took out 20 wesen in less then a minute. He comments the night is young. What did he even possibly think he could do against her. Even after seeing what she could do. He gets in her face in her room. I am sorry he is an idiot. If Meisner had not tought her self control Nick would be dead.
(03-13-2016, 03:29 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2016, 03:16 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]If someone burned down a trailer, fired a gun at a friend, make a point of showing they had sex in their bed, sent and email to get your mother to get her to Portland, myself if it is me and she says it's night I'm not going to believe it until I look. You can lie and break a trust or you can do things to break the trust, I'm just saying by this point Juliette the things she done has broken the trust. She doesn't have to have lied the events has taken Nick's trust in what she says, I may be true I'm not debating that I just can't believe her any longer no matter what she says.
Here are my thoughts:
Burning down the trailer-She admitted to Nick she burned it down. She wasn't lying there.
Messed up bed-JS, Nick and Juliette were a done deal by the time that scene rolls around. Nick had already taken down the pictures of her. No trust really broken there are all. All she was doing is telling Nick he wasn't special to her anymore. Beside that, they weren't married and weren't engaged.
Sending the email to Kelly-That's a trust breaker, to be sure. I just don't see how it adds up to definite proof that Juliette knew Kenneth was going to murder Kelly.
The shop-There are some variables there that cancel this out as being solely Juliette breaking Nick's trust. I think both Hank and Nick pulling their guns on her first definitely shows broken trust. There was no need for the big guns (Nick, Hank) or for Monroe to be there at all.
I didn't say anything about proof I was only going to why Nick may not believe her when she said she didn't know I wouldn't you would. So we are at the normal place.
(03-13-2016, 03:44 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:The shop-There are some variables there that cancel this out as being solely Juliette breaking Nick's trust. I think both Hank and Nick pulling their guns on her first definitely shows broken trust.
That is the key factore. They pulled their guns on her. No one talks about that. Her point was letting them know that was a stupid idea. That they thought their guns would protect them. She was never out to hurt some one just prove they are idiots. The next time Nick and Hank went after her Hank even admitted using a gun is a bad idea.
Nick denial is the part that gets me. He is living with a hexenbiest and still has no idea what he is up against. In the restaurant he is pushing her buttons. Antagonizing someone that just took out 20 wesen in less then a minute. He comments the night is young. What did he even possibly think he could do against her. Even after seeing what she could do. He gets in her face in her room. I am sorry he is an idiot. If Meisner had not tought her self control Nick would be dead.
Your point on the guns they only draw the weapons after she tossed Rosalee. You point she took out 20 wesen she has never has taken out a Grimm who wanted to fight. Grimm's are not wesen. Trubel doesn't act or look to have any fear of her, she told Eve she would have killed her that night I think her or Nick as Grimm's could kill her. Just don't forget the 5 dollars when you get your coffee.
(03-13-2016, 03:39 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Actually I don't remember about if Adelaind was telling the truth it not to Nick as we debate about Juliette.
But I believe my argument woks here also. Someone said (sorry but I don't remember if it was you who wrote this) that maybe Adelaind put a trigger in spell if someone tried to give Nick's power back. I would be one to buy this theory. I think that in time I posted against it but I think this is a valid theory.
Well... My point is that for Adelaind we can use the same arguments used to Juliette. Some will say she knows... Some will says she doesn't .. But the show give us elements to believe both. Don't out think?
You just brought up a key factor here, Adriano. I am the one who said that. But it was not fact. It was a theory based on some other things Adalind said. Now that we're well into season 5, it's obvious Adalind did not put a trigger into the spell and she was telling Nick the truth way back when when she said she didn't know Juliette would turn into a hexenbiest.
Juliette made the statement that she didn't know Kenneth was going to murder Kelly. In season five, Nick confronted her about setting up his mother. He wanted to know why she didn't feel any remorse. That tells me he believed her. If he didn't, he wouldn't be focused in on the fact that she set Kelly up. He wouldn't be asking why she didn't feel any remorse.
Instead he would be asking why she participated in Kelly's murder.
(03-13-2016, 03:44 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]Your point on the guns they only draw the weapons after she tossed Rosalee. You point she took out 20 wesen she has never has taken out a Grimm who wanted to fight. Grimm's are not wesen. Trubel doesn't act or look to have any fear of her, she told Eve she would have killed her that night I think her or Nick as Grimm's could kill her. Just don't forget the 5 dollars when you get your coffee.
Rosalee lunged toward Juliette in an effort to get the potion jar. It's my thought the Juliette mistook that move as a potential attack and so defended herself. It was obvious she never intended on killing Rosalee. The same cannot be said for Nick or Hank. And neither one of them had any business being there. Neither did Monroe.
To me it was obvious that they intended on forcing Juliette to take the potion. They intimidated her with the guns and threats.
Quote:Your point on the guns they only draw the weapons after she tossed Rosalee. You point she took out 20 wesen she has never has taken out a Grimm who wanted to fight. Grimm's are not wesen. Trubel doesn't act or look to have any fear of her, she told Eve she would have killed her that night I think her or Nick as Grimm's could kill her. Just don't forget the 5 dollars when you get your coffee.
Why is Trubel not scared of Eve because there is a difference between deadly and dangerous. Even Hexenette was not dangerous, just deadly. Unless provoked she does not attack. Like a pit bull.
They could kill her. How would they do that. With guns she showed she just takes them from them. They want to fight she blows their brains out as they come toward her. This is some one with the wave of her hand can remove you mouth, do his nose he would suffocate. She could control the biker from a distance. She sent Marwan into a coma with one breath (girl needs a tictac). The only reason Adalind is still walking around is Juliette did not have the will. She showed she had the ability. She said she would have killed Trubel that night, why didn't she. That has not been answered. I can only guess she wanted to die.