(10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2015, 10:32 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2015, 10:10 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]Stating it differently, Renard devoting himself to curing Juliette and enduring pain and anguish in order to steele himself to do so would be considered being pure of heart. The key being the pain he willingly went trough, tested his heart and because he did not back out, he became pure of heart.
That's a good point, izzy. I at first thought Renard actually did this for Juliette. But there was something jsgrimm brought up some time ago that came to mind. Renard went Catherine and told her that if Juliette died because of Adalind's actions, that might cause Nick to leave Portland. Renard said he invested too much in Nick to let that happen.
It seems he had some personal reasons to keep Nick around and saving Juliette's life was the way to make that happen.
I like the martial arts definition izzy used: devotes to a Single idea, person or concept.
Considering the Theological theory, as far as I know Jewish people has a concept of heart different from the concept we have now a days. For us heart means almost the same as feelings, love, hate... Those things. For Jewish heart means also thought, intentions... Heart is the internal part of our being... As a way to speak.
Considering those two definitions, original Sean intention in saving Juliette was jot pure since he was doing that for her... He was not doing that for Nick either. Sean was saving Juliette to keep Nick in Portland because of same hided and obscure intention.
Maybe the pure of heart potion was there to make Sean really cares about Juliette... Maybe the effects never really ended... That is a good debate.
Another point I would like to talk about is: how can someone became pure of heart chemically?
Biologically speaking, the heart has the only function of send blood to our body. Our brain is the one responsible to process our feelings, thoughts and intentions... Our brain would be the heart Jewish talk about.
There are a lot of Medicine drugs that act in our brain... For depression for exemple... Many ilegal drugs can also create illusions and things like that since they act in the brain. The potion gave to Sean can simply had acted in Sean brain... Changing his thoughts and this way his intentions...
“Love,” replied the fairy. “If a man of pure heart were to fall in love with her, that would bring her back to life!”
The quote from the episode The Kiss comes from a version of the sleeping beauty stories called the Sleeping Princess. You can find a link to the original fairy tale on my blog.
Another quote by the Sleeping Princess:
"He was the son of a king in a country close by. Young, handsome and melancholy, he sought in solitude everything he could not find in the company of other men: serenity, sincerity and purity."
The Sleeping Princess and The Kiss Episode of Grimm
The Sleeping Princess from Classic Fairy Tales
(10-24-2015, 09:33 AM)Lin S. Wrote: [ -> ]“Love,” replied the fairy. “If a man of pure heart were to fall in love with her, that would bring her back to life!”
The quote from the episode The Kiss comes from a version of the sleeping beauty stories called the Sleeping Princess. You can find a link to the original fairy tale on my blog.
Another quote by the Sleeping Princess:
"He was the son of a king in a country close by. Young, handsome and melancholy, he sought in solitude everything he could not find in the company of other men: serenity, sincerity and purity."
The Sleeping Princess and The Kiss Episode of Grimm
The Sleeping Princess from Classic Fairy Tales
Right. And this is the only story that talks about a kiss. But the man doesn't have to be a prince and the fairy never reveals why this man has to be pure of heart or what he has to do to be considered pure of heart. Does the fact that he seeks the company of other men who are pure of heart mean that he himself is pure of heart? I don't think so.
(10-24-2015, 09:33 AM)Lin S. Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2015, 10:32 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2015, 10:10 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]Stating it differently, Renard devoting himself to curing Juliette and enduring pain and anguish in order to steele himself to do so would be considered being pure of heart. The key being the pain he willingly went trough, tested his heart and because he did not back out, he became pure of heart.
That's a good point, izzy. I at first thought Renard actually did this for Juliette. But there was something jsgrimm brought up some time ago that came to mind. Renard went Catherine and told her that if Juliette died because of Adalind's actions, that might cause Nick to leave Portland. Renard said he invested too much in Nick to let that happen.
It seems he had some personal reasons to keep Nick around and saving Juliette's life was the way to make that happen.
I like the martial arts definition izzy used: devotes to a Single idea, person or concept.
Considering the Theological theory, as far as I know Jewish people has a concept of heart different from the concept we have now a days. For us heart means almost the same as feelings, love, hate... Those things. For Jewish heart means also thought, intentions... Heart is the internal part of our being... As a way to speak.
Considering those two definitions, original Sean intention in saving Juliette was jot pure since he was doing that for her... He was not doing that for Nick either. Sean was saving Juliette to keep Nick in Portland because of same hided and obscure intention.
Maybe the pure of heart potion was there to make Sean really cares about Juliette... Maybe the effects never really ended... That is a good debate.
Another point I would like to talk about is: how can someone became pure of heart chemically?
Biologically speaking, the heart has the only function of send blood to our body. Our brain is the one responsible to process our feelings, thoughts and intentions... Our brain would be the heart Jewish talk about.
There are a lot of Medicine drugs that act in our brain... For depression for exemple... Many ilegal drugs can also create illusions and things like that since they act in the brain. The potion gave to Sean can simply had acted in Sean brain... Changing his thoughts and this way his intentions...
“Love,” replied the fairy. “If a man of pure heart were to fall in love with her, that would bring her back to life!”
The quote from the episode The Kiss comes from a version of the sleeping beauty stories called the Sleeping Princess. You can find a link to the original fairy tale on my blog.
Another quote by the Sleeping Princess:
"He was the son of a king in a country close by. Young, handsome and melancholy, he sought in solitude everything he could not find in the company of other men: serenity, sincerity and purity."
https://howtobeagrimm.wordpress.com/22-l...-princess/
The Sleeping Princess from Classic Fairy Tales
I like the debate on the heart. I hadn't thought much about the potion to wake Juliette, but now the points made here cause one to rethink the potion and it's meaning
Adriano points on the brain I follow that and would like to add this for debate. I believe almost all have a dark side things we don't act on but are there. Married person might see an attractive person and think that person is attractive. They wouldn't cheat but they might for a time think about it. I read a job question to work for a armored car company, question was have you ever thought of robbery of and armored car if you said no you didn't get the job, they believe everyone had thought about it (funny thing until I read the question I hadn't).
I think the potion was made to clear those thoughts for a time at least. Nick also had to take a potion to clear his dark side to aid Juliette and Renard. Those dark thoughts have to be cleared from the mind. Making the person pure of heart. Just a thought.
So here's the $50,000 question: Was Juliette pure of heart?
I say yes.
(10-24-2015, 10:18 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So here's the $50,000 question: Was Juliette pure of heart?
I say yes.
Let's "agree to disagree" on that one. If you watched every episode from the pilot onwards, you'll see Juliette committed many not-so-pure blunders
long before she turned into a Hexenbiest.
I'd say the only character to be truly "pure of heart" on the show is Bud. Unfortunately, Juliette's heel turn pretty much sealed the fate of the entire cast, in that
anyone could become corrupted and untrustworthy on the flip of a dime.
(10-24-2015, 09:53 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 09:33 AM)Lin S. Wrote: [ -> ]“Love,” replied the fairy. “If a man of pure heart were to fall in love with her, that would bring her back to life!”
The quote from the episode The Kiss comes from a version of the sleeping beauty stories called the Sleeping Princess. You can find a link to the original fairy tale on my blog.
Another quote by the Sleeping Princess:
"He was the son of a king in a country close by. Young, handsome and melancholy, he sought in solitude everything he could not find in the company of other men: serenity, sincerity and purity."
The Sleeping Princess and The Kiss Episode of Grimm
The Sleeping Princess from Classic Fairy Tales
Right. And this is the only story that talks about a kiss. But the man doesn't have to be a prince and the fairy never reveals why this man has to be pure of heart or what he has to do to be considered pure of heart. Does the fact that he seeks the company of other men who are pure of heart mean that he himself is pure of heart? I don't think so.
The Sleeping Princess calls him both a prince and the son of a king.
quote:
"Now, it so happened that a Prince arrived in these parts. He was the son of a king in a country close by. Young, handsome and melancholy, he sought in solitude everything he could not find in the company of other men: serenity, sincerity and purity. Wandering on his trusty steed he arrived, one day, at the dark forest. Being adventurous, he decided to explore ..."
(10-24-2015, 12:11 PM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 10:18 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So here's the $50,000 question: Was Juliette pure of heart?
I say yes.
Let's "agree to disagree" on that one. If you watched every episode from the pilot onwards, you'll see Juliette committed many not-so-pure blunders long before she turned into a Hexenbiest.
I'd say the only character to be truly "pure of heart" on the show is Bud. Unfortunately, Juliette's heel turn pretty much sealed the fate of the entire cast, in that anyone could become corrupted and untrustworthy on the flip of a dime.
No character, even Bud, is completely pure of heart, 24/7. But characters often display pureness of heart, albeit temporary. That is what I meant about Juliette.
She wasn't doing evil immediately before she fell into her coma. So would she have been considered pure of heart, temporarily speaking? I would have to say yes. Otherwise, it makes no sense that Renard would have to be made pure of heart in order to be able to awaken her.
(10-24-2015, 01:01 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]No character, even Bud, is completely pure of heart, 24/7. But characters often display pureness of heart, albeit temporary.
I think that's something you and I will always have a difference of opinion about. Then again, maybe that's because I believe in an incorruptible core among particular individuals. I suppose that makes me a little spiritual, which could mean I'm the wrong kind of audience for "Grimm." (I know Joss Whedon is an atheist, and it's apparent Greenwalt and Kouf are heavily influenced by his philosophy as much as his style.)
(10-24-2015, 09:30 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Considering the Theological theory, as far as I know Jewish people has a concept of heart different from the concept we have now a days. For us heart means almost the same as feelings, love, hate... Those things. For Jewish heart means also thought, intentions... Heart is the internal part of our being... As a way to speak.
I didn't even want to bring up the theological beatitude. That was the only thing I could think of last night while I was typing. It was late, what can I say?
Do you watch the show, Vikings, Adriano? If so, you already know that the show was a just a springtime replacement, only supposed to last for 10 or 12 episodes. This upcoming February, it will begin its 4th year. I love the show and cannot wait until it returns. This is actually one show that was not recommended to me, but that I watched on my own.
I never knew much about the Vikings. I've seen the movie with Ernest Borgnine, who plays Ragnar. Ragnar is also the main character in the series, but it takes a real life approach to the Vikings. They are marauders, but they also want to seek and settle into new lands to farm. They believe totally in Odin, and look unfavorably on Ragnar when he brings a Christian monk, Athelstan, into their village as a slave. That, by the way, was among the coolest storylines I have ever seen. The monk does not convert Ragnar, but instead the two of them become great friends and have this complex relationship where their lives intertwine.
One of the things I really wanted to bring up here was the concept of pureness of heart in Vikings. It is not the same principle as the Christian beatitude, but it's just as striking. Vikings kills off as many main characters as Game of Thrones. But in Vikings, it's a hazard of the life they lead. They also have their own spiritual beliefs in Odin and Valhalla.
I wanted to bring up an example of what I see as pureness of heart in Vikings. The women in Vikings have always impressed me because they are devoted and fierce mothers. Their goodness really comes up when their children are in danger.
One of the main characters, Siggy, has lost everything. She was rich and the wife of a lord. Ragnar killed him in a fight for the lordship. She had a daughter who died. She had relationships with both the king and Ragnar's brother, but neither panned out. However, she was not banned from the village, but remained in Ragnar's house and helped raise his family. His two young boys venture out onto the ice one day, and fall into the water. Siggy goes after them, and saves both of them. What's cool about the scene is that after she brings the boys back up, she sees her deceased daughter, which of course signifies her death and journey to Valhalla.
I think mothers often signify pureness of heart more than anyone else.
They are unspoken heroes who do heroic things with no thought for recognition or honor. They do those things because they're the right things to do.
(10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Considering those two definitions, original Sean intention in saving Juliette was jot pure since he was doing that for her... He was not doing that for Nick either. Sean was saving Juliette to keep Nick in Portland because of same hided and obscure intention.
Maybe the pure of heart potion was there to make Sean really cares about Juliette... Maybe the effects never really ended... That is a good debate.
*urgh* this is an issue I have with Grimm. These story strings that lead no where. It's three years into the future and we know no more than we did three years ago.
Since it's morning and I'm in a different frame of thought, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment. What if Sean was actually trying to obtain the key for a good reason and not for his own personal benefit? Would saving Juliette be proof of pureness of heart?
(10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Another point I would like to talk about is: how can someone became pure of heart chemically?
Biologically speaking, the heart has the only function of send blood to our body. Our brain is the one responsible to process our feelings, thoughts and intentions... Our brain would be the heart Jewish talk about.
There are a lot of Medicine drugs that act in our brain... For depression for exemple... Many ilegal drugs can also create illusions and things like that since they act in the brain. The potion gave to Sean can simply had acted in Sean brain... Changing his thoughts and this way his intentions...
Because Sean thought he was pure of heart, was he indeed pure of heart?
Irukandji... I didn't want to talk theologically either. Sorry for the misunderstanding... What I wanted was to focus the Jewish meaning for heart because this meaning can be connected to the brain... Where our thoughts really happen in the biological way.
I don't know about Vikings... And I haven't see the series you told about. I will research about it.
AboutAbout Sean, I don't think the potion was to make him believe he is pure. I think the potion was made to really make Sean change his thinking... His neurons connections making his intentions about saving Juliette pure... With no hidden intention. I don't think the writers planned this far... But I think this is a theory that can be subject of the debate here. This would explain how the potion worked.
Jsgrimm commented about everyone having a dark side. Maybe this dark side bring a felling of being guilt. Maybe the pain caused by the potion was a way of eliminating this guilt feeling for a while...
I don't know why the writers put in the show that the PRINTS should be PURE OF HEART. But certainly the PURE OF HEART thing is a deep concept that we must think about considering theology, philosophy, culture and some other elements.
(10-24-2015, 04:12 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 09:30 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Considering the Theological theory, as far as I know Jewish people has a concept of heart different from the concept we have now a days. For us heart means almost the same as feelings, love, hate... Those things. For Jewish heart means also thought, intentions... Heart is the internal part of our being... As a way to speak.
I didn't even want to bring up the theological beatitude. That was the only thing I could think of last night while I was typing. It was late, what can I say?
Do you watch the show, Vikings, Adriano? If so, you already know that the show was a just a springtime replacement, only supposed to last for 10 or 12 episodes. This upcoming February, it will begin its 4th year. I love the show and cannot wait until it returns. This is actually one show that was not recommended to me, but that I watched on my own.
I never knew much about the Vikings. I've seen the movie with Ernest Borgnine, who plays Ragnar. Ragnar is also the main character in the series, but it takes a real life approach to the Vikings. They are marauders, but they also want to seek and settle into new lands to farm. They believe totally in Odin, and look unfavorably on Ragnar when he brings a Christian monk, Athelstan, into their village as a slave. That, by the way, was among the coolest storylines I have ever seen. The monk does not convert Ragnar, but instead the two of them become great friends and have this complex relationship where their lives intertwine.
One of the things I really wanted to bring up here was the concept of pureness of heart in Vikings. It is not the same principle as the Christian beatitude, but it's just as striking. Vikings kills off as many main characters as Game of Thrones. But in Vikings, it's a hazard of the life they lead. They also have their own spiritual beliefs in Odin and Valhalla.
I wanted to bring up an example of what I see as pureness of heart in Vikings. The women in Vikings have always impressed me because they are devoted and fierce mothers. Their goodness really comes up when their children are in danger.
One of the main characters, Siggy, has lost everything. She was rich and the wife of a lord. Ragnar killed him in a fight for the lordship. She had a daughter who died. She had relationships with both the king and Ragnar's brother, but neither panned out. However, she was not banned from the village, but remained in Ragnar's house and helped raise his family. His two young boys venture out onto the ice one day, and fall into the water. Siggy goes after them, and saves both of them. What's cool about the scene is that after she brings the boys back up, she sees her deceased daughter, which of course signifies her death and journey to Valhalla.
I think mothers often signify pureness of heart more than anyone else.
They are unspoken heroes who do heroic things with no thought for recognition or honor. They do those things because they're the right things to do.
(10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Considering those two definitions, original Sean intention in saving Juliette was jot pure since he was doing that for her... He was not doing that for Nick either. Sean was saving Juliette to keep Nick in Portland because of same hided and obscure intention.
Maybe the pure of heart potion was there to make Sean really cares about Juliette... Maybe the effects never really ended... That is a good debate.
*urgh* this is an issue I have with Grimm. These story strings that lead no where. It's three years into the future and we know no more than we did three years ago.
Since it's morning and I'm in a different frame of thought, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment. What if Sean was actually trying to obtain the key for a good reason and not for his own personal benefit? Would saving Juliette be proof of pureness of heart?
(10-24-2015, 08:36 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Another point I would like to talk about is: how can someone became pure of heart chemically?
Biologically speaking, the heart has the only function of send blood to our body. Our brain is the one responsible to process our feelings, thoughts and intentions... Our brain would be the heart Jewish talk about.
There are a lot of Medicine drugs that act in our brain... For depression for exemple... Many ilegal drugs can also create illusions and things like that since they act in the brain. The potion gave to Sean can simply had acted in Sean brain... Changing his thoughts and this way his intentions...
Because Sean thought he was pure of heart, was he indeed pure of heart?
Irukandji... I didn't want to talk theologically either. Sorry for the misunderstanding... What I wanted was to focus the Jewish meaning for heart because this meaning can be connected to the brain... Where our thoughts really happen in the biological way.
I don't know about Vikings... And I haven't see the series you told about. I will research about it.
AboutAbout Sean, I don't think the potion was to make him believe he is pure. I think the potion was made to really make Sean change his thinking... His neurons connections making his intentions about saving Juliette pure... With no hidden intention. I don't think the writers planned this far... But I think this is a theory that can be subject of the debate here. This would explain how the potion worked.
Jsgrimm commented about everyone having a dark side. Maybe this dark side bring a felling of being guilt. Maybe the pain caused by the potion was a way of eliminating this guilt feeling for a while...
I don't know why the writers put in the show that the PRINTS should be PURE OF HEART. But certainly the PURE OF HEART thing is a deep concept that we must think about considering theology, philosophy, culture and some other elements.
Since Nick also took a purification potion mixed by Rosalee following the ingredients in Catherine Shade's "shopping list" does that mean he is now a "prince" also? Can he awaken a sleeping beauty?