Let's try to look at this logically for a moment: If some random irresponsible Blutbad were to get stinking drunk, and woged right in front of an entire bar of people, how exactly could the Wesen hope to keep a lid on their existence? Especially considering this day and age of iphones, where photos/videos can be snapped and uploaded to the internet within minutes? This isn't MEN IN BLACK, where some joker in a suit can show up and conveniently erase everyone's memory with a flash of light. (I still hate that plot device. It's just so easy and...cheap.)
(02-25-2015, 07:17 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ]Let's try to look at this logically for a moment: If some random irresponsible Blutbad were to get stinking drunk, and woged right in front of an entire bar of people, how exactly could the Wesen hope to keep a lid on their existence? Especially considering this day and age of iphones, where photos/videos can be snapped and uploaded to the internet within minutes? This isn't MEN IN BLACK, where some joker in a suit can show up and conveniently erase everyone's memory with a flash of light. (I still hate that plot device. It's just so easy and...cheap.)
Do you know the word Paradigm? When applied to critical thinking it is the idea that people model the world in a specific to them pattern. They are not willing to admit or even see what is outside their paradigm. That is but one factor. Add to that there are only 20 to 40 people in the bar if all are willing to admit what they saw to each other they will not be so willing to with anyone else. It is about belonging to a group and you do not want others to think you are unreliable for thousands of years that has been a death sentence. It has shaped our instinctive behaviors.
As for the iPhone I will again direct everyone to go to Youtube and look at some of the amazing amateur Photo Shop work available for daily perusal. Living in a world where people think crawling around looking disembowled is a funny practical joke and put it out for the world to see I am not sure you could convince anyone that anything is real by posting it on line.
(02-25-2015, 08:12 AM)Samsarilian Wrote: [ -> ]Do you know the word Paradigm? When applied to critical thinking it is the idea that people model the world in a specific to them pattern. They are not willing to admit or even see what is outside their paradigm.
Yes, I know the word, and it's still too much of a stretch. I think the problem here is that you're still adhering to Agent K's simplistic belief that people naturally turn into stupid hive-minded insects when in a large group. Out of the forty hypothetical humans in this particular bar, I'm sure four out of five will insist what they saw was some kind of alcohol-induced hallucination, while the remaining person will say, "Uh...no, you're idiots, and I don't care if I'm incarcerated inside a mental institution, I know what I saw." This pattern can only repeat itself for so many thousands of years before someone catches on. I wouldn't be surprised if someone HAS caught on, and the show's writers are simply keeping that revelation in store for a future episode.
Quote:As for the iPhone I will again direct everyone to go to Youtube and look at some of the amazing amateur Photo Shop work available for daily perusal. Living in a world where people think crawling around looking disembowled is a funny practical joke and put it out for the world to see I am not sure you could convince anyone that anything is real by posting it on line.
Have you ever seen some of that "amateur Photo Shop work?" There's a fine line between being cynical and just being stupid. If someone saw a person woging on an iphone and said, "hey, awesome CGI, dude," I'd smack them upside the head. We're talking about supernatural transformations within the context of the show itself, and magically-induced transformations are a whole other breed from something a nerd would slap together on his PC during a rainy afternoon.
Oh, and if you could try not to go out of your way to derail another thread of mine, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
(02-25-2015, 08:39 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (02-25-2015, 08:12 AM)Samsarilian Wrote: [ -> ]Do you know the word Paradigm? When applied to critical thinking it is the idea that people model the world in a specific to them pattern. They are not willing to admit or even see what is outside their paradigm.
Yes, I know the word, and it's still too much of a stretch. I think the problem here is that you're still adhering to Agent K's simplistic belief that people naturally turn into stupid hive-minded insects when in a large group. Out of the forty hypothetical humans in this particular bar, I'm sure four out of five will insist what they saw was some kind of alcohol-induced hallucination, while the remaining person will say, "Uh...no, you're idiots, and I don't care if I'm incarcerated inside a mental institution, I know what I saw." This pattern can only repeat itself for so many thousands of years before someone catches on. I wouldn't be surprised if someone HAS caught on, and the show's writers are simply keeping that revelation in store for a future episode.
Quote:As for the iPhone I will again direct everyone to go to Youtube and look at some of the amazing amateur Photo Shop work available for daily perusal. Living in a world where people think crawling around looking disembowled is a funny practical joke and put it out for the world to see I am not sure you could convince anyone that anything is real by posting it on line.
Have you ever seen some of that "amateur Photo Shop work?" There's a fine line between being cynical and just being stupid. If someone saw a person woging on an iphone and said, "hey, awesome CGI, dude," I'd smack them upside the head. We're talking about supernatural transformations within the context of the show itself, and magically-induced transformations are a whole other breed from something a nerd would slap together on his PC during a rainy afternoon.
Oh, and if you could try not to go out of your way to derail another thread of mine, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Around the world today are literally 100,000s of people, if not a 1,000,000 in institutions claiming to have seen things. Has anyone caught on? This is in fact one of the recurring themes with the character Trubel. Once in and diagnosed someone has to learn to say what the psychietrist wants them to or they never get back out. If they laps after leaving they end up right back inside.
You never get an in focus shot of it, but look at this. Watch till the end that is where all the action is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTCy7RAPOfU
the lack of focus and limited amount of time in both this and the longer version, I can no longer find, both suggest it may be real. People faking stuff get nice clear shots. Like you would of a blutbad tearing up a bar? If he were just posing for the kreshites he would be dead in a couple of days. The council would see to it. People who find things are rarely prepared to shot them even when the camera is already out and running. In 30 years of trying to find creative ways to make a living I have been a freelance photographer. I did it before the days of digital.
I still did not and do not believe it is real.
Also I do not see the difference in the CGI and the magically induced woge, since that is exactly what we see every week, CGI. It would have to happen in front of me in real time on a well lit street for me to believe. I can willing suspend disbelief and enjoy the show but I do not believe it after the show is done. Remember the context of the show is that this is all happening in our reality. So everything we can do, or we would believe they can do and they believe. So it is much more likely for anyone in that world to do what I would do and write it off till it is right in their face.
And what is more this is the attitude of SCIENCE. It must be proven to be accepted as real.
BTW I did not try to derail your last thread nor am I trying with this one. Forums are about debate. Do not imply people are "cynical and just being stupid" just because their opinion is not the same as yours. The mods will leave it alone as long as we are debating not tearing at each others personalities.
I agree with Samarilian in this day and age you film a woge no one would believe it because we watch a woge every week. Even if you saw it in person you would not believe it because we have seen shows that do street magic that show even more impossible things. Because we have gotten use to seeing the impossible, seeing it in person we would assume it is a trick a good trick but still a trick. Yes there would be a flood of media wanting to talk to who ever did the woge to get answers. Two things would happen they would play dumb or the council would make them go bye bye.
But we deal with this kind of thing all of the time UFO. Groups of people have sworn to witness a siting. people have photographed and filmed sightings. We have reports of autopsies. But UFO are not confirmed as real. Why would wesen sightings work any different.
There's one difference because wesen blood has double DNA that could lead to discovery. But science find odd things in human physiology all of the time. Off course double DNA would get you sent to a lab real quick.
(02-25-2015, 11:16 AM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with Samarilian in this day and age you film a woge no one would believe it because we watch a woge every week. Even if you saw it in person you would not believe it because we have seen shows that do street magic that show even more impossible things. Because we have gotten use to seeing the impossible, seeing it in person we would assume it is a trick a good trick but still a trick. Yes there would be a flood of media wanting to talk to who ever did the woge to get answers. Two things would happen they would play dumb or the council would make them go bye bye.
But we deal with this kind of thing all of the time UFO. Groups of people have sworn to witness a siting. people have photographed and filmed sightings. We have reports of autopsies. But UFO are not confirmed as real. Why would wesen sightings work any different.
There's one difference because wesen blood has double DNA that could lead to discovery. But science find odd things in human physiology all of the time. Off course double DNA would get you sent to a lab real quick.
finding multiple types of DNA the lab would say contaminated sample. I know cops who dread that finding, it is all to common. If it were in a dead body they would say that someone was transfused with animal blood and that is why the person died. Occam's Razor at work. They would be looking for a murderer or someone to blame for it. :p
One of the first things to remember about logic is that people who study it all learn that it is "the best way to go wrong with confidence."
Yet every doctor and scientist is versed in it as a holy grail. I myself have to plead guilty to this. I rely on it. I learned programing in 1980 and have lived by the truths of logic.
After doing some reading the strange DNA would not be a problem. Science is currently mixing human and animal DNA. Two years ago there was even legislation to ban the practice. Did not pass but it was voted on. So if we take out the magical woge which is a physics violation not a biological one. discovering a wesen or para-human would not have the enquire spouting UFO. I could not find an example of a para-human coming to term. But there are a number of embryos that have been created. But science has always done things because they can, not because they should. I can not imagine someone has not taken it to term.
So do wesen walk among us. As a bet no. as a possibility, open for discussion.
(02-25-2015, 12:58 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]After doing some reading the strange DNA would not be a problem. Science is currently mixing human and animal DNA. Two years ago there was even legislation to ban the practice. Did not pass but it was voted on. So if we take out the magical woge which is a physics violation not a biological one. discovering a wesen or para-human would not have the enquire spouting UFO. I could not find an example of a para-human coming to term. But there are a number of embryos that have been created. But science has always done things because they can, not because they should. I can not imagine someone has not taken it to term.
So do wesen walk among us. As a bet no. as a possibility, open for discussion.
You might want to open another thread for that thought. But my vote up front is it would be more like the Jessica Alba series from a few years ago but without all the extra power just a lot of health problems. Mixxing DNA is not something we should be messing with we do not understand it well enough. Our DNA already matches almost every living thing on the planet by 98%. If we mess this one up we and everything that depends on it are dead or irretrievably damaged.
The problem is that those doing it do not necessarily think they are gods they are not thinking about anything but getting a Nobel or some other prize. To be fair they may just love to try something new. I still program as a hobby after 35 years just to try new things out. But I have no idea why a geneticist would run the risk. If I catastrophically fail as a programer my computer crashes. If the geneticist does the whole of earths ecology crashes. I know this seems a slippery slope argument but look at it. Geneticist are playing with the structures that make the living part of the environment. It would not take much of a mistake to wipe out a closed environment and the planet is exactly that a closed environment. After the mistake is made it only takes time for it to spread.
EDIT
I have had this debate face to face with people who design plants and animals that are meant for consumption. I love what my family calls FankinTomatos. I have never tasted better but I shudder for days after I eat one. We know the guy that alters their DNA. I live not far from Harris ranch which has two areas for their cattle. The one without genetic modification for sale to the USA and the one with for sale to Japan. These people universally say they want to rid the world of hunger. I can sympathize and still be worried because though they say they know what each gene does I know that there are billions of gene combinations in the simplest plant or animal. No one can know that much.
I agree messing with genetics is something I would never agree with. But being a perl programmer. I do understand that feeling of 'what if'. I have lost track how many times I have seen some routine and ripped it about to see what makes it tick.
Though I have a problem with genetic manipulation I do not have a problem with vitro fertilization. It is now considered mainstream. But remember the first attempt was an act of playing god. Someone debugged the process and then hit run, then checked the result. The results being a parson. We know a lot about fertilization but not everything. The same with working with DNA. Someday someone will debug the process and hit run.
(02-25-2015, 04:04 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]I agree messing with genetics is something I would never agree with. But being a perl programmer. I do understand that feeling of 'what if'. I have lost track how many times I have seen some routine and ripped it about to see what makes it tick.
Though I have a problem with genetic manipulation I do not have a problem with vitro fertilization. It is now considered mainstream. But remember the first attempt was an act of playing god. Someone debugged the process and then hit run, then checked the result. The results being a parson. We know a lot about fertilization but not everything. The same with working with DNA. Someday someone will debug the process and hit run.
the problem is the 15,567,231 times between now and then.
And what legal status do we give to something that is half rabbit and half human, or half dog, cow, chicken, mouse. Is it human or something that can be put to work without compensation beyond feeding. After all that is all we have to do for a horse or dog to make it plow our field or guard our home. Can we use them in place of rats, rabbits or mice in animal testing of drugs? What about replacing the chimps we deliberately cause brain damage to in order to study the recovery process?
I see to many problems with the whole mess. The kind of problems that take generations to work out if we some how miss wiping life itself out.