Sean Renard switched sides more times than I could count. Adelind at least had a good reason for switching sides because her loss of Diana in the middle when we first thought that maybe she could turn good. Renard seemed to just switch sides to where ever he could get the most power. I think Nick lost a lot of respect for him when he became loyal to BC ... and they weren't given enough episodes for Renard to earn his place back in...so they just sorta shoehorn it in during the last few episodes.
07-30-2020, 07:28 PM (This post was last modified: 07-30-2020, 07:29 PM by irukandji.)
We all know the details of Juliette's betrayal of Kelly. In point of fact, whenever betrayal is mentioned in a Grimm discussion, 99% of the time, it's followed by some kind of description of Juliette's betrayal. As far as I can recall, no other betrayals are ever mentioned by the characters. Can this really be called the worst betrayal, or would it be the only betrayal in the series?
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(07-30-2020, 10:01 AM)Tish Wrote: Hello -- first post here. I was introduced to Grimm about November of 2019 via Amazon Prime. Finally finished it last week.
OP topic -- worst betrayal in my mind is Juliette's betrayal of Nick.. Second worst betrayal is probably in my mind that of the Scooby gang and Kelly against Adalind - taking Diana from her without her consent. If they had allowed her to on the run with Kelly it would have made a lot more sense to me. She had no reason to trust any of these people because she KNEW she had hurt them. Yet she trusts them because Kelly tells her to...and then Kelly turns around and spirits her child away.
To comment on the progression of this thread --
Juliet is responsible for her actions. She remained Eve so that she wouldn't have to hold herself accountable for her actions. So I don't really like her too much. Yes she was forced to become Eve -- but when the stick removed that "barrier" so to speak, she chose to keep it in place and not show any regret for what she had done. Being Eve is how she controlled her hexenbeist. But in the long run, it's and unhealthy way to deal with it.
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(07-30-2020, 07:28 PM)irukandji Wrote: We all know the details of Juliette's betrayal of Kelly. In point of fact, whenever betrayal is mentioned in a Grimm discussion, 99% of the time, it's followed by some kind of description of Juliette's betrayal. As far as I can recall, no other betrayals are ever mentioned by the characters. Can this really be called the worst betrayal, or would it be the only betrayal in the series?
I brought up Kelly spiriting Diana away to parts unknown with the help of Sean and Nick and the Scoobies. She trusted Kelly to keep them both safe...and Kelly took her daughter. That was a massive betrayal by the gang that set in motion all the stuff that happened latter.
07-31-2020, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2020, 10:49 AM by irukandji.)
Tish wrote: I brought up Kelly spiriting Diana away to parts unknown with the help of Sean and Nick and the Scoobies. She trusted Kelly to keep them both safe...and Kelly took her daughter. That was a massive betrayal by the gang that set in motion all the stuff that happened latter.
That's true. Kelly and the gang kidnapping baby Diana can be looked at as a betrayal of Adalind's trust. But what I am saying is that is a matter of opinion. Not one of the characters confirmed it as a betrayal like Nick did to Eve when he confronted her about his mother. Some fans believe that it was not a kidnapping at all since Sean approved of the plan and he was Diana's father. Other fans have stated there was justification as Adalind and Sean would have been murdered if they were found protecting Diana. Even Adalind herself doesn't consider it a kidnapping and that could be because her original intent was to sell Diana to the royals, but then she changed the deal by demanding a hexenbiest spirit instead. She got her spirit but the royals did not get baby Diana. Adalind knew she was going to be pursued until they got what they believe was rightfully theirs by reason of fulfilling her demands.
The best way to frustrate a cyberbully is to ignore him.
(07-31-2020, 10:46 AM)irukandji Wrote: Tish wrote: I brought up Kelly spiriting Diana away to parts unknown with the help of Sean and Nick and the Scoobies. She trusted Kelly to keep them both safe...and Kelly took her daughter. That was a massive betrayal by the gang that set in motion all the stuff that happened latter.
That's true. Kelly and the gang kidnapping baby Diana can be looked at as a betrayal of Adalind's trust. But what I am saying is that is a matter of opinion. Not one of the characters confirmed it as a betrayal like Nick did to Eve when he confronted her about his mother. Some fans believe that it was not a kidnapping at all since Sean approved of the plan and he was Diana's father. Other fans have stated there was justification as Adalind and Sean would have been murdered if they were found protecting Diana. Even Adalind herself doesn't consider it a kidnapping and that could be because her original intent was to sell Diana to the royals, but then she changed the deal by demanding a hexenbiest spirit instead. She got her spirit but the royals did not get baby Diana. Adalind knew she was going to be pursued until they got what they believe was rightfully theirs by reason of fulfilling her demands.
Uh...Adalind several times informs people that they took Diana. She accused Sean of that in the scene where Nick was informed that he was about to become a father. She also confronts Rosalee with that when she informs her that she's aware of the part that Rosalee played in the spiriting of her child away from her. Yes Sean authorizing it does put the stain of legality on it. So how about I change the wording to taking the baby from her. That is a betrayal because she trusts them to protect her and the baby -- and they instead decide to leave her high and dry -- and spirit off with her child.
Point blank -- people change their minds all the time -- do you know how many adoptions fall through because the birth mother changes her mind? So I don't hold a lot of validity to your argument that it doesn't count against the scoobies. It means nothing to the betrayal -- you can't say it's not a betrayal because she was originally going to do this. You have to base the betrayal on what actually happened -- which is she changed her mind and decided to keep her baby and Diana was taken from her without her permission (since legally custody hadn't been determined -- using U.S. law based in the state I reside in and having been through custody fights before -- both parents can chose to do something without the other parents permission -- but sending a child off with a complete stranger and having no idea where wouldn't not have been looked on very well in the eyes of the court for Sean...just saying).
07-31-2020, 02:46 PM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2020, 10:55 PM by irukandji.)
(07-31-2020, 01:43 PM)Tish Wrote:
(07-31-2020, 10:46 AM)irukandji Wrote: Tish wrote: I brought up Kelly spiriting Diana away to parts unknown with the help of Sean and Nick and the Scoobies. She trusted Kelly to keep them both safe...and Kelly took her daughter. That was a massive betrayal by the gang that set in motion all the stuff that happened latter.
That's true. Kelly and the gang kidnapping baby Diana can be looked at as a betrayal of Adalind's trust. But what I am saying is that is a matter of opinion. Not one of the characters confirmed it as a betrayal like Nick did to Eve when he confronted her about his mother. Some fans believe that it was not a kidnapping at all since Sean approved of the plan and he was Diana's father. Other fans have stated there was justification as Adalind and Sean would have been murdered if they were found protecting Diana. Even Adalind herself doesn't consider it a kidnapping and that could be because her original intent was to sell Diana to the royals, but then she changed the deal by demanding a hexenbiest spirit instead. She got her spirit but the royals did not get baby Diana. Adalind knew she was going to be pursued until they got what they believe was rightfully theirs by reason of fulfilling her demands.
Uh...Adalind several times informs people that they took Diana. She accused Sean of that in the scene where Nick was informed that he was about to become a father. She also confronts Rosalee with that when she informs her that she's aware of the part that Rosalee played in the spiriting of her child away from her. Yes Sean authorizing it does put the stain of legality on it. So how about I change the wording to taking the baby from her. That is a betrayal because she trusts them to protect her and the baby -- and they instead decide to leave her high and dry -- and spirit off with her child.
Point blank -- people change their minds all the time -- do you know how many adoptions fall through because the birth mother changes her mind? So I don't hold a lot of validity to your argument that it doesn't count against the scoobies. It means nothing to the betrayal -- you can't say it's not a betrayal because she was originally going to do this. You have to base the betrayal on what actually happened -- which is she changed her mind and decided to keep her baby and Diana was taken from her without her permission (since legally custody hadn't been determined -- using U.S. law based in the state I reside in and having been through custody fights before -- both parents can chose to do something without the other parents permission -- but sending a child off with a complete stranger and having no idea where wouldn't not have been looked on very well in the eyes of the court for Sean...just saying).
Viewers know that Nick, Kelly, Sean and the scoobies kidnapped Diana. However, Adalind doesn't know it. She thinks the royals took Diana because Nick and company led her to believe it was so. They in essence perpetrated a lie and went to despicable lengths to separate Adalind from her baby. It's only later, after Adalind went after Diana does she find out that it was actually Nick and company who took her. But even at that point, she never indicates she felt betrayed. Without dialogue to support it, there can be several interpretations to the kidnapping.
Adalind herself is not above reproach here. Because she wanted a hexenbiest spirit so badly, she put up her unborn child as a bargaining chip. Maybe the reason why she never admitted to betrayal is because her impulsive behaviors were in essence, a self-betrayal. Just a thought as again, there is no dialogue to support that Adalind experienced any kind of betrayal.
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(07-31-2020, 10:46 AM)irukandji Wrote: Tish wrote: I brought up Kelly spiriting Diana away to parts unknown with the help of Sean and Nick and the Scoobies. She trusted Kelly to keep them both safe...and Kelly took her daughter. That was a massive betrayal by the gang that set in motion all the stuff that happened latter.
That's true. Kelly and the gang kidnapping baby Diana can be looked at as a betrayal of Adalind's trust. But what I am saying is that is a matter of opinion. Not one of the characters confirmed it as a betrayal like Nick did to Eve when he confronted her about his mother. Some fans believe that it was not a kidnapping at all since Sean approved of the plan and he was Diana's father. Other fans have stated there was justification as Adalind and Sean would have been murdered if they were found protecting Diana. Even Adalind herself doesn't consider it a kidnapping and that could be because her original intent was to sell Diana to the royals, but then she changed the deal by demanding a hexenbiest spirit instead. She got her spirit but the royals did not get baby Diana. Adalind knew she was going to be pursued until they got what they believe was rightfully theirs by reason of fulfilling her demands.
Uh...Adalind several times informs people that they took Diana. She accused Sean of that in the scene where Nick was informed that he was about to become a father. She also confronts Rosalee with that when she informs her that she's aware of the part that Rosalee played in the spiriting of her child away from her. Yes Sean authorizing it does put the stain of legality on it. So how about I change the wording to taking the baby from her. That is a betrayal because she trusts them to protect her and the baby -- and they instead decide to leave her high and dry -- and spirit off with her child.
Point blank -- people change their minds all the time -- do you know how many adoptions fall through because the birth mother changes her mind? So I don't hold a lot of validity to your argument that it doesn't count against the scoobies. It means nothing to the betrayal -- you can't say it's not a betrayal because she was originally going to do this. You have to base the betrayal on what actually happened -- which is she changed her mind and decided to keep her baby and Diana was taken from her without her permission (since legally custody hadn't been determined -- using U.S. law based in the state I reside in and having been through custody fights before -- both parents can chose to do something without the other parents permission -- but sending a child off with a complete stranger and having no idea where wouldn't not have been looked on very well in the eyes of the court for Sean...just saying).
Viewers know that Nick, Kelly, Sean and the scoobies kidnapped Diana. However, Adalind doesn't know it. She thinks the royals took Diana because Nick and company led her to believe it was so. They in essence perpetrated a lie and went to despicable lengths to separate Adalind from her baby. It's only later, after Adalind went after Diana does she find out that it was actually Nick and company who took her. But even at that point, she never indicates she felt betrayed. Without dialogue to support it, there can be several interpretations to the kidnapping.
Adalind herself is not above reproach here. Because she wanted a hexenbiest spirit so badly, she put up her unborn child as a bargaining chip. Maybe the reason why she never admitted to betrayal is because her impulsive behaviors were in essence, a self-betrayal. Just a thought as again, there is no dialogue to support that Adalind experienced any kind of betrayal.
Soooo instead of looking at the actual definition of betrayal because the actual word is not stated it's not betrayal. Yeah...makes a lot of sense to me. What happed was textbook betrayal. Instead of saying the words they actually showed it to us via screen. That's even harder to ignore or deny. But I'll give it to you...you are doing a good job of doing that.
The issue with calling the snatching of Diana from Adalind a betrayal is that Adalind really had no reason to believe she should trust any of the people who did it. Sean had already abandoned her once, and she should have realized that if not for the baby, Nick and the scoobies had more reason to want to behead her than to help her in any way.