Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW?

[tscchope]

HW would know that the sale of the books was coming from the person asked to authenticate them not from Nebojsa's estate. Meisner promised to do what he could. The estate may agree to sell Nick the trunk and its contents or it make not. The estate planned to auction everything off. There was nothing in the episode to indicate that Felix had contacted the estate after the murder of the cataloguer to arrange for the sale of the trunk to a private buyer.

The use of Czechoslovakia by the HW database may be a blooper or may indicate the last time that HW was actually a government funded secret organization.

Meisner said he'd seen a few Grimm books. Where and where are the books now?

The bounty hunters work for the wesen council taking down wesen who have broken its rules. Those rules are the ones the Black Claw want to overthrow. They'd have the bounty hunters on their hit lists.

[speakeasy]

Yes, their methods are questionable, but this is war.

"Yes, their methods are questionable, but..." is always a dangerous thing to say. Using "war" as an all-around excuse to justify everything is just as dangerous. I'm sure the people behind the Rwandan Genocide would insist their actions were entirely acceptable by war's standards.

On strictly moral ground, you're right, but this isn't a philosophical exercise. I'm asking you who is the aggressor in this case, Hexenadler? My answer is Black Claw and they have initiated hostilities; they are in fact, an army on a march of invasion, imo.

If I thought that the aim of Hadrian's Wall was ridding the world of wesen, I couldn't support them. I am certain they will have as many wesen supporting them as does BC. If we see decent wesen like Monroe, Rosalee, Bud, etc., deciding to fight along side of HW, that will be the confirmation for me that this is a regrettable, but necessary contest with only one side emerging as the winner. Negotiations will come after, not before, physical conflict, I'm sorry to observe. I'm not certain I'm right about this, but they seem like a group that has been incited into becoming an angry mob.

War is ugly. We seem to be making progress to avoid it more and more in recent times, but we're not there yet. Art imitates life as they say, so here we are in a t.v. series facing the same old methods of solving problems the races have resorted to from the beginning of recorded history.

Genocide is even uglier than war, imo. That's why I can't subscribe to the possibility of the hidden object of power may be a means of turning everyone into homo sapiens. It's a good idea about what it may be, however, and I'm hoping that if Nick finds it, he will have the wisdom to destroy it.

---

...I feel Trubel is still loyal to Nick and at the same time believes in the cause of HW. Yes, their methods are questionable, but this is war. Imo, Nick will never be anything but an independent thinker whether he joins forces with HW or merely allies himself with them. What I can't see is him or the Scoobies not joining in the fight to stop this uprising.

I agree that there is no way Nick and the crew don't fight against BC. Just don't see Nick wanting to sign on with HW full time in the end. I think he'll ally himself to them.

Of course, I could be wrong. Have been plenty of times before!

Oh, me, too, keeps me very humble. I also don't want Nick to sign on with HW full time. I think he'll ally himself to them, too. But given the percentage of accuracy of my predictions, that's probably not a good sign, haha.

[Hexenadler]

On strictly moral ground, you're right, but this isn't a philosophical exercise. I'm asking you who is the aggressor in this case, Hexenadler? My answer is Black Claw and they have initiated hostilities; they are in fact, an army on a march of invasion, imo.

How do we know that for sure? We don't know anything besides what the writers (and HW) have already told us. I'm not saying BC are the real good guys in all this (they are VERY clearly not), but any organization that's willing to strike deals with the Royals, break into someone's home and chloroform them on the spot, and brainwash a highly powered Hexenbiest into an emotionless automaton for their cause "because they had to," sets off a red alert inside my brain.

The Nazis obviously initiated hostilities, but does that justify the internment of over 127,000 Japanese-American citizens during WWII?

[speakeasy]

On strictly moral ground, you're right, but this isn't a philosophical exercise. I'm asking you who is the aggressor in this case, Hexenadler? My answer is Black Claw and they have initiated hostilities; they are in fact, an army on a march of invasion, imo.

How do we know that for sure? We don't know anything besides what the writers (and HW) have already told us. I'm not saying BC are the real good guys in all this (they are VERY clearly not), but any organization that's willing to strike deals with the Royals, break into someone's home and chloroform them on the spot, and brainwash a highly powered Hexenbiest into an emotionless automaton for their cause "because they had to," sets off a red alert inside my brain.

The Nazis obviously initiated hostilities, but does that justify the internment of over 127,000 Japanese-American citizens during WWII?

Well, we do know about the Wesen Naught episode in which the BC attacks shops at midnight and kills some wesen, using coersion and terror tactics to force others to their cause. There was the successful operation to take out Rankin, who Trubel said was a top-level BC organizer. Billy Trump and Dallas Cruz, as well as some others, have been identified as agents of the BC. So that Black Claw is a real and present danger I have accepted as a given. Trubel has filled Nick in on the activities and mandate of Hadrian's Wall. Nick has seen for himself how Trubel and the others live and operate from the HW war room.

In regard to the methods used by HW to get what they want being a troubling moral dilemma, I can only respond for myself. If I were in the position of having to make difficult decisions that would affect the success of my side and something I believed in, I'd do what I had to in order to win. I would have to carry the burden of making decisions that would harm, kill, or adversely affect the lives of others for the rest of my days, but I would still go ahead. But, only after carefully assessing the situation and coming to the realization that this was what must be done.

Yes, the interment of our Japanese citizens during WWII was wrong. For some of us, I'm talking about our leaders now, I believe it is an act of courage to give orders that they know means the annihilation of many people. President Truman gave the order to drop the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But only after his advisers had presented him with documented proof that in accordance with their cultural and national beliefs, all Japanese citizens, not only the military, must willingly sacrifice their lives and the lives of their children before surrendering to the Allies. It was already happening by the thousands, and we were well aware that an invasion of that country would result in the loss of many, many thousands of Allied troops. What a horrible decision to have to make. But I think it was the right one under those impossible circumstances. His other choice would have been to say no on moral grounds. That would have led to a prolongation of the war and the predictable loss of so many American and Allied lives - and to the sacrificial loss of just as many Japanese lives as were lost in the bombings, imo. People of good conscience will always mourn the necessity of making these terrible decisions; that's what gives me hope for the future.

[wfmyers1207]

@Everyone. Allow me to tell you a true story.

A dear and good friend of our family when I was a boy was a gentleman named James Cecere. (No harm using his real name. He's long past now.)

He joined the US Marines in 1939 at the age of 19. He was what Marines call "One of the Old Breed" and served in the Pacific from beginning to end. Started on Gaudalcanal and ended up on Okinawa. (1st Marine Division) Never got a scratch!

When he was on Okinanwa and they were gearing up for 'Operation Olympic', the code name for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, he experienced what those old school Jarheads described as "seeing the light". That is to say, he became convinced he had used up all his luck in this world, and the next time he went into battle he was going to die.

Then they dropped the A-Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Japan surrendered. Like most of the men and women who have been there he didn't like to talk about what he saw and did during the war. But, once when I was home on leave, he took me out for a couple of drinks and some guy time.

This is what he said to me:

"Billy, I didn't know what the bomb was. But, when they told us they had used it and the Japs had surrendered, I could have kissed every god damned Air Corps son of a bitch on that fucking island!"

Think about it.

I still love you like a father Jim!

Sgt. James Cecere, US Marine Corps, WWII Pacific Campaign (Bronze Star)

[GrimmCountenance]

So I'm new to this forum, the absence of an episode last week spurred me on to seek out new ways to feed my Grimm obsession!

This thread in particular interests me because it is something that I have been thinking about a lot. I can't really see Nick fully joining up with HW at this moment although I'm almost positive that he'll ally with them, but I've been wondering if something may happen near the end of the season that kind of forces him to join HW.

I tried to think of what would happen to make him feel that he had no choice, and then I got to thinking about how the show would be different if he was a member of HW. The biggest thing is, he probably couldn't be a detective anymore, as HW seems to be kind of a full time job. Then I thought, what if something happened to Renard? If BC were to somehow kill Renard, or if he were to go to Europe to try and take over with the royals or something, Nick wouldn't have the ability he as now to investigate wesen crimes. And therefore, maybe he would feel that he would be able to do more as an operative of HW.

[jsgrimm45]

So I'm new to this forum, the absence of an episode last week spurred me on to seek out new ways to feed my Grimm obsession!

This thread in particular interests me because it is something that I have been thinking about a lot. I can't really see Nick fully joining up with HW at this moment although I'm almost positive that he'll ally with them, but I've been wondering if something may happen near the end of the season that kind of forces him to join HW.

I tried to think of what would happen to make him feel that he had no choice, and then I got to thinking about how the show would be different if he was a member of HW. The biggest thing is, he probably couldn't be a detective anymore, as HW seems to be kind of a full time job. Then I thought, what if something happened to Renard? If BC were to somehow kill Renard, or if he were to go to Europe to try and take over with the royals or something, Nick wouldn't have the ability he as now to investigate wesen crimes. And therefore, maybe he would feel that he would be able to do more as an operative of HW.

The writers have given us to many things to consider for now. Like the keys thread, the Adalind/Kelly thread, the new twist on how can Nick have 5 keys if there are only 7 and the royals have 4, now add that all the action is now in Portland.

If Chavez was the only active member who was in law enforcement that Nick, Hank, and Wu are needed more to fill that role now. The Scooby's are the best group HW could hope for in any area of operation. Nick and Monroe have worked together with other wesen to give HW something they lack information.

We know that Nick and Monroe will go to Germany, we will see how the Scooby's work with this missing links. We may also see how HW takes to the idea of Nick and Monroe leaving Portland to hunt treasure.

How do you see that affecting HW option of Nick and Monroe, do you see Trubel siding with HW or Nick if HW doesn't want them to go?

[wfmyers1207]

@JS. The points you made are exactly why I don't see Nick signing on with HW. He has messed up, but he tries to do what is right.

Good example was when Meisner told Truble to stay at HW HQ instead of going with Nick to get the Grimm books. She obeyed. If the positions had been reversed Nick would have told him to shove it! No way he would let baby sister go alone if it was at all possible for him to be there to cover her back!

That scene was also another reason I am beginning to wonder about Truble. Is she so far gone into HW that she would betray Nick if HW told her to do so?

[Saranghaeyo Oppa]

@JS. The points you made are exactly why I don't see Nick signing on with HW. He has messed up, but he tries to do what is right.

Good example was when Meisner told Truble to stay at HW HQ instead of going with Nick to get the Grimm books. She obeyed. If the positions had been reversed Nick would have told him to shove it! No way he would let baby sister go alone if it was at all possible for him to be there to cover her back!

That scene was also another reason I am beginning to wonder about Truble. Is she so far gone into HW that she would betray Nick if HW told her to do so?

I agree, Tubel acts like a real GRIMM. I think HW has given her a purpose she believes in and made her feel like she is home. Nick's concious and upbringing has also had an effect on him being the type of Grimm he wants to be. Once he feels betrayed , we have seen how fast and powerful fighter Nick is. He brings his Grimm on and come out on top. Lol

[Hexenadler]

That scene was also another reason I am beginning to wonder about Truble. Is she so far gone into HW that she would betray Nick if HW told her to do so?

She'd better not. After Juliette, it's safe to say Nick has pretty much had his fill of betrayal. Stabbing him in the back again would probably result in a bad time for EVERYONE involved:

http://images.hngn.com/data/images/full/....jpg?w=650