I think Sean would had been happy with Rachel

[Kathryn Wooten]

I say Sean let himself to be used.....he found Rachel to be fun..he knew she was using her sex to get him to become mayor...so I say Sean liked her company. Remember it Was Rachel seducing Sean not the other way around

[izzy]

Well, you've offended just about everything about women and attributed it to how Renard's mind works, Izzy. If it isn't how you really feel, I wish you'd clarify. Btw, I happen to think you're wrong about Sean. What's telling to me is that you've picked a small corner of the forum to restate your case, but it's a free world.

Can't say I even slightly understand your commentary, read it many time and it alludes me.

Sean's character reminds me of my ex-brother, his attitude toward women, interactions with them, how he projects, the self-centeredness, how people interact with him etc.

[FaceInTheCrowd]

What Izzy posted is essentially what Sasha Roiz has said about Sean Renard on several occaisions. He's said that Sean has lust affairs, not love affairs, and that he views everyone he meets from a perspective of how a relationship with them might benefit him most. He might actually like and care about some people personally, but that wouldn't stop him from manipulating and using them if doing so would advance his interests.

[speakeasy]

It's been established that Sean is ambitious and can be a user. I've never argued against that. It could be the overly colorful language that Izzy uses to describe his treatment of the women in his life that raises my hackles, to me it's unnecessarily course, or merely the timing of it following directly after a few positive remarks about the character. Face in the Crowd isn't any different in his opinion, so now I acknowledge once again that Renard is a scoundrel.

It would be a novelty if a poster could defend a minority opinion without facing such a robust opposition. That's why we come here, to voice our opinions, so while it's fair to expect counter-responses, it feels crappy.

But I'm still a fan of the Captain.

[FaceInTheCrowd]

Renard's goals used to be driven by a desire for revenge against his royal family for the suffering and threats they subjected him and his mother to. While hardly a noble quest, it was easy enough to understand and sympathize with. And given that his ethics were to a large extent based on his being a royal, it was also easy to accept them as a flaw in a person with redeeming qualities. But having him drink the BC kool aid was a major turn to the dark side. The old Renard would have had Nick, Hank and Wu sitting around his desk listening in on calls from Rachel and other BC conspirators and scheming with him to undermine a threat to "his" territory that had no potential to help bring down the Kronenbergs and thus had no redeeming value to him and needed to be brought down. Throwing in with them took away any reason we had to see him as anything other than a villain who himself needs to be brought down by our heroes.

[speakeasy]

We don't yet know if Renard was really in with BC or just going along; at any event, there has been much speculation about whether or not BC can be considered bad or good; I think they're bad. I believe he shot Meisner to hurry along what was inevitably a painful end, I believe he would have tried to stop Bonaparte from killing Nick without Diana's intercession, just as I believe he has his share of better angels, and that he'll follow them when it comes to the ultimate choice. My beliefs are rooted in the things I've pick up in his behavior that point to him having a conscience.

I have no protest against the logic of your statements to support your opinion, nothing new in your laying out the popular explanation of Sean's true character, but I see it quite the opposite and hope he won't will be eliminated by N and the others. Nick is my biggest hero of the series, and I have no doubt he would win in any contest against Sean; they're well-matched, imo, but Nick has that inherent edge that puts him ahead of the other guy, call it the will to survive. I'm just hoping it doesn't come to that.

I'm also hopeful that Renard will do the right thing, in fact, it doesn't seem possible that the show would end with him being a complete villain.

We'll see.

[FaceInTheCrowd]

The tell for me was that he didn't share his knowledge with Nick, Hank and Wu as he obtained it. Compare that with his behavior when Eric called him and Nick asked if he wanted him to leave his office.

No interesting bad guy is a "complete villain." What makes someone a villain is not a total lack of conscience about doing bad, but the decision to ignore that conscience and do it anyway.

[Kathryn Wooten]

Sean is not a bad man......He knew that Bonaparte dream was now a nightmare to him starting with Miesner (when he showed no mercy)and the horror he learned that Bonaparte was going to exterminate the human race or the horror he saw in Adalind being choked or when he was threaten that his COMPASSION..is a danger to BC plan...so even Bonaparte saw that there is good in him he hated. I think the writers so desperately try to make Sean dark ..they .did not read his own history that Sean would never had drunk the kool aid...and with Bonaparte's mind control who knows if Sean really was towing the line or was made to believe it was the right thing...look how Diana can manipulate her father......I would not put it pass Bonaparte not filing Sean head with how great the revolution would be

[FaceInTheCrowd]

In real life, every time someone drinks the kool aid, there's always someone who says they never thought that could happen. It happens.

[speakeasy]

Sean has always played his cards close to vest, preferring to keep his own counsel most of the time. That's reverting to type, no disagreement there. Suspecting the motives of others defines the man.

My main point in defending the basic decency I sense in Renard is that he does follow his conscience much of the time. You don't feel that way. It's like having a fondness for someone who acts defensive most of the time because they don't have a foundation of trust of those around them. Some people would think they see a ne'er do well type headed for a cliff. But a person who sees their fundamental good within, never will stop hoping that events will bring out the best in them. I feel confident Sean will do the right thing - but probably not until he's staring into the abyss at the very end of the series. For me, the Captain's on the bridge and I'm going down with the ship unless he steers us away from the iceberg.