07-15-2017, 07:15 AM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2017, 07:19 AM by Devegs.)
I get your point Dicappotere and I think it makes sense. There have been similar discussions in the past about blurring those lines during discussions, or expressing opinions whether intentionally or unintentially as fact.
(07-15-2017, 06:41 AM)dicappatore Wrote: IMO. The way I see it is, in one hand we should discuss us as being the Judge, Jury and Executioner since is what we do in our heads on these characters anyway. Share our thought on based on what is presented to us.
This is 99% of the forum discussions. And it’s not a surprise that the discussions follow that route. Many simply want to rave about their favorite characters/couples and rant about characters and events disrupting the lives of favorites. Devegs is spot on with:
Quote:There have been similar discussions in the past about blurring those lines during discussions, or expressing opinions whether intentionally or unintentionally as fact.
We often misrepresent and/or misinterpret facts by manipulating actual events to fit our preferred or interpreted outcome. And just as often, we’re genuinely convinced that we’re correctly interpreting and presenting those facts. Because the only fact we can be 100% certain of is our individual opinion and the personal mindset driving that opinion.
(07-15-2017, 06:41 AM)dicappatore Wrote: Then on the other hand we also discuss what you recommend. This gives us more of a contrast on what was and what it could have been. To me seeing the contrast between the written word and how we would have it re-written. It gives a more varied understanding on our various outlook.
I believe the biggest difficulty in analyzing and interpreting the creative team’s and the character’s intent and motivation was caused by G & K’s inability or refusal to commit to characterization and storyline. So I can’t share my thoughts based on what was presented without critiquing the writing and G & K’s vision for the show and characters.
"If my devils are to leave me, I am afraid my angels will take flight as well." Rainer Maria Rilke
(07-15-2017, 08:10 AM)Robyn Wrote: I believe the biggest difficulty in analyzing and interpreting the creative team’s and the character’s intent and motivation was caused by G & K’s inability or refusal to commit to characterization and storyline. So I can’t share my thoughts based on what was presented without critiquing the writing and G & K’s vision for the show and characters.
Here is a perfect example of facts versus fiction. A while back on some other thread, someone brought up something about Nick unable to man-up and do his diligent on diaper changing. Another poster brought up the deleted scene showing Nick doing the deed. In return, I started the argument about the importance of even a deleted scene, since it was part of the original plot.
That whole argument was a bait I set up for the poster because there is a non-deleted scene where Nick admits he is grasping the diaper thingy, which I think I also mentioned on another thread.
I did not follow up with the argument because, from past excanges, I knew if I had posted the proof besides the deleted scene, I would get back a denial or re-direction of facts and opinions and I just dropped it.
Well Lo and Behold! Here is the scene that I never mentioned to prove that poster had no clue on WTF they were talking about. It doesn’t show Nick changing a diaper but admits to it he is manning-up to it as he switches places with Adalind to update Trubel. A great example on how a poster can take facts, completely denied or intentionally forget, to justify an opinion based on falsehood and try to make it into a fact.
S5, E6, Wesen Nacht; After Trubel wakes up in Nick’s fome after being rescued from the hospital by Nick and Meisner.
Trubel: How long have I been here?
Adalind: Nick brought you home from the hospital last night.
Trubel: Last night?
Adalind: You've been asleep for about 25 hours.
Trubel: [Whispering] Oh, my-What am I wearing?
Adalind: Nick's shirt. He brought your clothes back. I washed them. I'll take over for Nick so you guys can talk. [She walks away]
[Trubel gets up in pain and walks over to the kitchen area to sit down]
Nick: [He walks up] Yeah, still... getting the hang of that changing the diaper thing. How are you feeling?
Trubel: Sore, and really glad to see you. Was somebody in the hospital Wesen?
Nick: Yeah, I'll tell you about that later. Still have some questions myself, but you've got to be hungry.
Trubel: A little, yeah. Well, no, a lot.
Robyn, Your Honor, I rest my case! /bow
You know you are OLD, when you see the Slide Ruler you used in college selling in an ANTIQUE SHOP!!
(07-14-2017, 05:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: Well, technically Nick would have become a Grimm because of the biological changes that were occurring in the first episode. Marie simply arrived in time to provide a quick overview of his responsibilities and bleak future as a Grimm, and provide material and weaponry to help him better combat Wesen threats.
Renard wanted Juliette alive and well because he feared Nick might leave Portland if she didn’t survive. He had already betrayed the Royals by returning the key to Nick by the time Adalind put Juliette in a coma. So without Nick in his arsenal, Renard was left to fend for himself against the Royals’ retaliation.
That said, I agree Renard was a big influence in Nick’s path as a Grimm, but one of my first confusions with Nick was his total lack of suspicion surrounding Renard ‘helping’ Juliette behind his back. Nick had already formed an alliance with Monroe when Renard suggested they work together against the Royals, and it makes sense that Nick would want more than one Wesen alliance. But even if a novice Grimm more easily manipulated, Nick was presented as a capable detective. Considering that Renard initially intended to kill Marie and give the key to the Royals, shouldn’t Nick have questioned why his new ally attempted to awaken Juliette in secret rather than offering a plan/spell?
Renard suggesting an alliance probably had more to do with G & K not wanting Nick’s day job to interfere with him being a Grimm. They needed a precinct captain who was in the know and onboard with Nick’s Grimm activities. And because of that, Nick was presented as not suspecting Renard’s motive and questioning his method to make things easier for the creative team.
I agree, the biological progression of Nick's grimm would have continued regardless. But what I am saying here is, what if Renard knew Nick was a grimm and told him point blank he's to act like the rest of the cops on the job, no deaths, no freaking wesen out, etc.
Would Nick have stayed on the force and ignored his grimm impulses?
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(07-14-2017, 05:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: Well, technically Nick would have become a Grimm because of the biological changes that were occurring in the first episode. Marie simply arrived in time to provide a quick overview of his responsibilities and bleak future as a Grimm, and provide material and weaponry to help him better combat Wesen threats.
Renard wanted Juliette alive and well because he feared Nick might leave Portland if she didn’t survive. He had already betrayed the Royals by returning the key to Nick by the time Adalind put Juliette in a coma. So without Nick in his arsenal, Renard was left to fend for himself against the Royals’ retaliation.
That said, I agree Renard was a big influence in Nick’s path as a Grimm, but one of my first confusions with Nick was his total lack of suspicion surrounding Renard ‘helping’ Juliette behind his back. Nick had already formed an alliance with Monroe when Renard suggested they work together against the Royals, and it makes sense that Nick would want more than one Wesen alliance. But even if a novice Grimm more easily manipulated, Nick was presented as a capable detective. Considering that Renard initially intended to kill Marie and give the key to the Royals, shouldn’t Nick have questioned why his new ally attempted to awaken Juliette in secret rather than offering a plan/spell?
Renard suggesting an alliance probably had more to do with G & K not wanting Nick’s day job to interfere with him being a Grimm. They needed a precinct captain who was in the know and onboard with Nick’s Grimm activities. And because of that, Nick was presented as not suspecting Renard’s motive and questioning his method to make things easier for the creative team.
Just a small reminder. Nick found out about Renard’s helping Juliette, in secrete, was way after she came out of the comma and a big rift between Juliette and Nick progressed to allmost a permanent break-up, after he found out about their obsession to each other. Nick knew Renard was royalty in season 2. But not until S2, Episode 13 did Nick also found out about Renard being Wesen.
This is when Renard asked to join forces. Nick only agreed to it because he got back the key and agreed to go with Nick and get that spell between him and Juliette broken. Up to that point Nick was played by Renard since he knew Nick was a Grimm from episode 1 or 2 in season 1
You know you are OLD, when you see the Slide Ruler you used in college selling in an ANTIQUE SHOP!!
07-15-2017, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2017, 11:13 AM by Robyn.)
(07-15-2017, 09:24 AM)irukandji Wrote: I agree, the biological progression of Nick's grimm would have continued regardless. But what I am saying here is, what if Renard knew Nick was a grimm and told him point blank he's to act like the rest of the cops on the job, no deaths, no freaking wesen out, etc.
Would Nick have stayed on the force and ignored his grimm impulses?
I think in that context, whether Renard was using his position to compromise Nick or genuinely wanted to run the precinct on the up and up, Nick would eventually leave the force and take a more vigilante approach. Hank and Wu might come into the know differently and maybe sooner, but I think they’d unofficially help Nick while trying to prevent Renard from finding out.
Do you think the later scenario of Nick contemplating a normal life with Juliette instead of becoming a Grimm again would make sense in this scenario? Because I think Nick making a such a commitment that soon is a bold move that firmly establishes Grimm as the priority. So for that matter, do you even see Nick staying with Juliette if willing to leave the force to be an active Grimm?
(07-15-2017, 08:48 AM)dicappatore Wrote: Here is a perfect example of facts versus fiction. A while back on some other thread, someone brought up something about Nick unable to man-up and do his diligent on diaper changing. Another poster brought up the deleted scene showing Nick doing the deed. In return, I started the argument about the importance of even a deleted scene, since it was part of the original plot.
I remember that discussion but honestly, dicappatore, proving whether or not Nick changed a diaper on screen is a trivial matter in the bigger scheme. I’m more interested in the implications, such as, was Nick emotionally invested in family, yet, intrinsically compelled as a Grimm even to the detriment of family. A diaper changing scene might be pivotal, but it’s only one small component of the overall Grimm/family picture.
You corrected me on the order of events that led to the Nick/Renard alliance. Learning those particular facts might influence a future discussion or opinion, but it wasn’t enough to change my opinion of Nick in the current discussion.
(07-15-2017, 09:57 AM)dicappatore Wrote: Just a small reminder. Nick found out about Renard’s helping Juliette, in secrete, was way after she came out of the comma and a big rift between Juliette and Nick progressed to allmost a permanent break-up, after he found out about their obsession to each other. Nick knew Renard was royalty in season 2. But not until S2, Episode 13 did Nick also found out about Renard being Wesen.
This is when Renard asked to join forces. Nick only agreed to it because he got back the key and agreed to go with Nick and get that spell between him and Juliette broken. Up to that point Nick was played by Renard since he knew Nick was a Grimm from episode 1 or 2 in season 1
It’s been so long since I’ve seen those episodes, I don’t remember the order of events. So I’m not questioning whether those events happened in the order you’re providing. I just don’t understand how the order of events contradicts my original assessment of Nick accepting Renard’s offer of alliance at face value. When Nick learned all the facts and accepted Renard’s alliance in S2 ep 13, he’d been a Grimm for one and half seasons. Hadn’t he already experienced sufficient attack and deception to at least be suspicious of Renard? Did he actually believe Adalind was the mastermind in everything that happened to Marie, Hank, and Juliette, and like him, Hank, and Juliette, Renard was a victim of Adalind’s schemes?
OR. Am I also forgetting that Nick did suspect Renard and track/investigate his movements & interactions to ensure he was on the up and up?
"If my devils are to leave me, I am afraid my angels will take flight as well." Rainer Maria Rilke
07-16-2017, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2017, 08:18 AM by irukandji.)
(07-15-2017, 11:08 AM)Robyn Wrote: Do you think the later scenario of Nick contemplating a normal life with Juliette instead of becoming a Grimm again would make sense in this scenario? Because I think Nick making a such a commitment that soon is a bold move that firmly establishes Grimm as the priority. So for that matter, do you even see Nick staying with Juliette if willing to leave the force to be an active Grimm?
I've felt from day one that DG was miscast as Nick. If, as we talked about, being a grimm is such a compelling force, the actor who wields it should have an wild edginess and an independent nature to him that would be consistent with grimms. This compelling nature should be increasing to the independent loner the most desirable thing to him. At the same time, he's been a human for 30+ years and been in law enforcement for say, 5+ years, so that should add maybe a cynical approach perhaps tempered by his love for Juliette. In short, there should be a major conflict going that's no doubt going to result in Nick just chucking it all to be a grimm.
But that never happened in the series. I think the series recognized DG's weaknesses as the main character, so they surrounded him with a group of wesen/humans to make up for the shortfall. Nick has this comfort zone while he's a cop and a grimm.
But as an independent loner, would this comfort zone still be available to him? A loner doesn't keep regular hours and it appears the scoobies generally do. So I would say that if Renard forbade him to use his grimm powers, I think Nick would follow the ruling and resign himself to be a law enforcement officer.
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(07-16-2017, 07:57 AM)irukandji Wrote: I've felt from day one that DG was miscast as Nick. If, as we talked about, being a grimm is such a compelling force, the actor who wields it should have an wild edginess and an independent nature to him that would be consistent with grimms. This compelling nature should be increasing to the independent loner the most desirable thing to him. At the same time, he's been a human for 30+ years and been in law enforcement for say, 5+ years, so that should add maybe a cynical approach perhaps tempered by his love for Juliette. In short, there should be a major conflict going that's no doubt going to result in Nick just chucking it all to be a grimm.
I think it’s more than only a compelling force. When the Grimm DNA kicks in and people see the horror and violence first hand, it’s harder to turn a blind eye to make their life easier. I think where the internal force comes in is when someone wants to maintain their mainstream lifestyle to the detriment of their Grimm duties. Crossing over from police work to Grimm isn’t as long a walk as from investment broker bringing in millions per year or a government official with high-reaching political aspirations. It’s hard to imagine a pianist, kindergarten teacher, or stay at home mom, who has never been told or trained, becoming a Grimm.
Based on what G & K stated was their vision for the lead, DG playing Nick as an average-Joe nice guy/detective fits the profile. But I think their lickety-split delivery of the character actively Grimming in the pilot compounded by an absence of character driven complications failed to portray Nick’s struggle and transition to Grimm.
Instead, Nick was surrounded by like-minded Wesen and humans who admired and encouraged him as a Grimm. He never had to make a choice because no one, specifically the two women in his life, insisted or even asked him to choose. Nick lost Juliette because he was a Grimm, but became a father a few days later, and shortly after that the baby’s mother was head over heels in love with him. G & K didn’t provide a momentous event that placed Nick alone, beaten down, contemplative, forced to choose absolutely. G & K constructed a path for Nick to keep one foot firmly planted in both worlds and gave him the best of both lifestyles.
"If my devils are to leave me, I am afraid my angels will take flight as well." Rainer Maria Rilke
07-19-2017, 04:02 AM (This post was last modified: 07-19-2017, 04:07 AM by irukandji.)
(07-17-2017, 02:16 PM)Robyn Wrote: I think it’s more than only a compelling force. When the Grimm DNA kicks in and people see the horror and violence first hand, it’s harder to turn a blind eye to make their life easier. I think where the internal force comes in is when someone wants to maintain their mainstream lifestyle to the detriment of their Grimm duties. Crossing over from police work to Grimm isn’t as long a walk as from investment broker bringing in millions per year or a government official with high-reaching political aspirations. It’s hard to imagine a pianist, kindergarten teacher, or stay at home mom, who has never been told or trained, becoming a Grimm.
Yes but what "horror" exactly is it that these people see? Are they psychotic and so turn that psychosis into a fairytale where they become the hero and kill indiscriminately? I just don't buy that every single wild grimm roaming the earth just "happens" upon a wesen committing such horrendous acts that he/she immediately has to step in and save the day. I even tried looking at it from a nature perspective, that these people are put upon the earth to keep wesen from overrunning it. But that doesn't seem to be the case either because wesen are fruitful and multiplying and grimms seem to be rarer and rarer. Is that because nature is slowly weeding them out? Are they like a cancer on the earth?
(07-17-2017, 02:16 PM)Robyn Wrote: Based on what G & K stated was their vision for the lead, DG playing Nick as an average-Joe nice guy/detective fits the profile. But I think their lickety-split delivery of the character actively Grimming in the pilot compounded by an absence of character driven complications failed to portray Nick’s struggle and transition to Grimm.
Instead, Nick was surrounded by like-minded Wesen and humans who admired and encouraged him as a Grimm. He never had to make a choice because no one, specifically the two women in his life, insisted or even asked him to choose. Nick lost Juliette because he was a Grimm, but became a father a few days later, and shortly after that the baby’s mother was head over heels in love with him. G & K didn’t provide a momentous event that placed Nick alone, beaten down, contemplative, forced to choose absolutely. G & K constructed a path for Nick to keep one foot firmly planted in both worlds and gave him the best of both lifestyles.
My issue from the start is a grimm was never defined satisfactorily, in my opinion. Nick started getting headaches and started seeing things. Marie shows up with the trailer, tells him to dump Juliette, and promptly dies shortly afterward, which is supposed to pave the way for him. If this is a natural thing, why doesn't Nick immediately have an instinct about what to do? Instead, he makes it up as he goes along based upon biased references and input from Monroe and Rosalee.
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(07-19-2017, 04:02 AM)irukandji Wrote: Are they like a cancer on the earth?
I don't think so. Nature, in order to maintain balance typically has carnivores in smaller numbers than say herbivores. There are less lions or sharks in the wild than there are impalas or sardines. Just because those at the top of the food chain are less, doesn't make them cancers to the planet that must be wiped out. According to the premise of the show, Grimms are nature's way of maintaining the balance or else wesen would overrun the human population since they are technically higher than regular humans in terms of the hierarchical system of the three species.