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+--- Thread: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's (/Thread-Who-s-heinous-acts-were-worse-Adalind-s-or-Juliette-s)
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - syscrash - 01-21-2018
Time after time people keep wanting to argue as if the characters where making the choice. Every argument ignores any an all narrative. The arguments even interject the idea of what they should have known. I will try and explain it again. Grimm is a scripted show under complete control of the writers. If the writers have Juliette say she did not know. Then that is what the writers want the viewers to believe. This idea of arguing why that is not true, makes no sense. You can argue the logistic of something. But you can not argue the point of view.
People keep wanting to argue the motivation for what a character does. The writers do not go that deep into establishing that kind of insight to the character. All actions and response have one go. That goal is to point the story in a certain direction. That is why many of the action and response do not make sense if viewed from a realistic point of view.
Take Henery of Green post. The view is though you are evaluating an actual event. Try evaluating it as the writers wrote it. Consider actually what happen and not the assumptions. When ambiguity exist listen to the narrative and the prologue. That is how the writers state their intent.
Now lets consider what the writers actually showed. The writers exposed Adalind to Kenneth intent by killing Sean's spy. The writers also let us know that Adalind understood the ramifications of going against Kenneth by having her go to Nick out of fear. By listing to the dialog and watching what the writers showed. We saw Juliette was portrayed as not able to kill Adalind. It was also shown the Adalind believed that Juliette was trying to kill her. WE then hear Kenneth threaten Adalind with Juliette. The writers then provide us with proof that the threat was true by having Juliette burn the trailer after talking to Kenneth. Now lets examine that action. The main reason they burnt the trailer was for technical reasons. The writers use Juliette as a women scorned as a reason. Trying to apply the subtext people try to do as to who was write or wrong is not even addressed by the writers. The whole act of how Adalind got pregnant in the first place. The writers have the characters show they hold no ill will to how it went down. this is not because the writer want you to feel a certain way about the character. They are trying to establish a point of view about the event. Had it been about the character, they would have had they characters express an opinion.
Lets take Kelly death. You never hear Nick say Juliette killed his mother. At most he says she set her up. To counter that they writers absolve Juliette, and make Nick statement as viewed from that characters point of view. The writers absolve Juliette by never showing are having dialog that provides her with direct or indirect knowledge of what was in store. Then to clear up any ambiguity about what Juliette did. They provided narrative saying she did not know. This statement goes along with the writers not giving her any direct knowledge.
The writers then do a redemption statement where she expresses regret. The writers even push the point to show Juliette forcing Nick to kill her. Because the writers need the character, they provide and intervention and create a bridge to transition from Juliette to Eve. In later episodes the writers provide narrative stating that Trubel was not trying to kill Juliette. Again this was meant to clear up any ambiguity.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Syscrash Assumptions, The truth of the matter is Juliette led Kelly into a death trap and cared little weather she lived of died and stacked every advantage in Kenneth's favour and made sure Kelly was unsuspecting of her ambush this is not assumption it’s fact. It matters little wether she knew 100 percent she would die ether way she’s a conspirator in Murder.
How exactly do the writers absolve Juliette when Eve clearly states she can never forgive Juliette for what she’s done if Eve can’t forgive Juliette how the audience supposed to forgive her.
It’s your assumption that Juliette couldn’t kill Adalind the show showed she would by dropping a gargoyle directly on her head if it wasn’t for the guards quick reactions she’d be died. Eve told Trubel in season 5 Juliette would have definitely murderd her and nick so it really is a stretch for you to claim she wouldn’t murder her arch enemy.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
(01-21-2018, 05:22 PM)irukandji Wrote:I don’t think Frederick intended for Adalind to return to Europe and probably instructed Kenneth to kill her as soon as he had Diana. It’s likely that Adalind only survived because Juliette becoming a Hexenbiest foiled the original plan and forced her to flee to Nick for protection. Had the writers not planned to replace the Royals with HW/BC, S4 might have ended with Frederick leaving Portland with Diana and the S5 showdown would have been Nick & company vs. the Royals and Diana, and maybe a still angry Juliette.(01-21-2018, 04:49 PM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind wasn’t only aware of the original plan, she was an active participant. The plan had always been to lure Kelly to Portland. Why would she suddenly assume Kenneth no longer needed Kelly in Portland? If anything, Adalind was counting on him accomplishing that so she’d have an opportunity, with Nick’s help, to get Diana.This is what I was looking for. It sounds like Kenneth was never planning on handing Diana over to Adalind. However, Adalind intended to help Kenneth obtain Diana.
I am in agreement with you that the intent was to lure Kelly into Portland with Diana, whether Kenneth did the luring with Adalind at his side or with Juliette at his side.
Henry, I never suggested Juliette wouldn’t kill Adalind. I never brought it up one way or the other. But since you did - Juiliette would have thoroughly enjoyed beating Adalind to death. However, once dead Adalind’s suffering is permanently over while giving Adalind’s child, who Juliette learned in S3 Adalind loved very much, to the Royals would have caused endless emotional torment.
The only thing I suggested was that killing Kelly wasn’t Juliette’s objective. Preventing Adalind from getting her baby back, and working against Nick with his enemy, was Juliette’s objective which helped cause Kelly’s death. Again, I'm not suggesting that Kelly's death is less heinous because it wasn't Juliette's prime objective, but that Juliette didn't plot with Kenneth to kill Kelly, only to get the baby from her. I see no to reason to suspect that Juliette cared anymore about the wellbeing of Kelly, Nick, and the others than Adalind did.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - irukandji - 01-21-2018
(01-21-2018, 05:37 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Assumptions, The truth of the matter is Juliette led Kelly into a death trap and cared little weather she lived of died and stacked every advantage in Kenneths favour and made sure Kelly was unsuspecting of her ambush this is not assumption it’s fact. It matters little wether she knew 100 percent she would die ether way she’s a conspirator in Murder.
Why do you view Kelly as the innocent in all of this henry? Kelly entrusted herself with protecting and hiding Diana. Yet the moment she gets an email from Juliette, she's on her way, no questions, no suspicions, no grimm aspect to her at all.
What's worse, she's on her way with Diana. It's not trust that got Kelly into trouble, it was arrogance. Her arrogance began with telling Nick and company that she was the best one to protect Diana. It ended with her showing up at Nick's believing she was still the best one to protect Diana. In the end, she was entirely clueless, but still very arrogant.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Robyn, that’s a response to syscrash not you it was her who suggested Juliette couldn’t kill Adalind, the Royals never once suggest luring Kelly to Portland before Kenneth met with Juliette they were always just looking her whereabouts and knew Portland was the best place to find that out.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
Syscrash, for someone who insists the characters are equivalent to stick figures acting out the writers’ story, you’ve offered up some rather hardy arguments that Kelly’s death was Adalind’s fault. As much as I appreciate the benefit of new insight, this isn't new and you really don’t need to continue explaining how the show works. The same issues have been discussed over and over, despite knowing the writers simply wanted to move their characters around their constructed sets.
(01-21-2018, 05:49 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Robyn, that’s a response to syscrash not you it was her who suggested Juliette couldn’t kill Adalind, the Royals never once suggest luring Kelly to Portland before Kenneth met with Juliette’s they were always just looking her whereabouts and knew Portland was the best place to find that out.
Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking to me. But…
I’m admittedly the worse at remembering details. However, I thought the reason Adalind went to Juliette’s house was to take her to Kenneth so they could barter her for Kelly handing over Diana. Yes, the Royals had been unable to locate Kelly, which is why they decided to force her to come to Portland with Diana and Juliette’s life was intended to be the bait.
If I’m wrong, why did Adalind go to Juliette’s house?
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
They were planning on getting information by interrogating it out of her it was actually Adalinds plan to go to the house Viktor just went along with it after being reluctant at first. It’s was never mentioned they were using her as bait to lure in Kelly.
Viktor Adalinds conversation script below from 4x13
Adalind-We need to get to Juliette.
Viktor-Not just yet.
Adalind-Then what are we doing?
Viktor- It's called back-channel diplomacy.
And it cannot be done truly effectively when done so loudly.
He's here.
Mmm.
Adalind-Who?
Viktor Just watch and, hopefully, learn.
So, what did Renard tell you? Kelly Burkhardt was last known to be driving a 2008 Ford F250 Crew Cab, Oregon DOV 412, registered to Juliette Silverton
Mmm.
Who? Just watch and, hopefully, learn.
So, what did Renard tell you? Kelly Burkhardt was last known to be driving a 2008 Ford F250 Crew Cab, Oregon DOV 412, registered to Juliette Silverton.
So, Miss Silverton did have a role to play.
Three months ago, the truck was re-registered to a Dennis and Helen Becker in Spokane,
So, she sold the truck.
Do you think you can find her? Oh, I'll find her.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Viktor-That's diplomacy.
Adalind-So, let me try a little bit of it on Juliette.
As you can see it never mentions using Juliette for leverage Adalind is just egar to confront Juliette for information , try a little diplomacy on her and Viktor goes along with it hoping it will bare fruit.
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e13
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e13
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e13
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
So Adalind intended to what? Torture Juliette into giving up Kelly’s location? Threaten Nick that she’d kill Juliette unless Kelly returned her baby?
Okay, I got that part wrong. But whatever the original plan was or wasn’t, Adalind knew Kenneth intended to establish an alliance with Juliette; right? Didn’t Adalind flee to Nick because Kenneth offered her to Juliette as a gift? Adalind also learned from their confrontation at the precinct that Juliette and Nick were no longer together. So why keep anything about Kenneth or Juliette from Nick, unless Adalind was hoping to have Nick's protection while getting Diana back. Whether or not Adalind was ever an integral part of the Royals' plan, she knew their objective was to find Kelly and take Diana from her. Wasn't that reason enough to not tell Nick anything that might prevent her from getting Diana before the Royals did? Do you think Adalind actually thought Kelly might offer to give Diana back to her?
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Robyn , she confronted Juliette as soon as she arrived in Portland with Viktor not Kenneth she wanted to interrogate Juliette to see what information she could give, Adalind was still waery to confront nick for what ever reason. Nick also knew the Royals entention was to find Diania and take her from Kelly , the only thing that Adalind knew that nick didn’t was Kenneth was attempting to use Juliette to get information on Diania’s whereabouts. She didn’t knew they were luring Kelly to town to get Diania. Adalinds jaw almost hit the floor when Nick told her in 4x22 that Kelly was dead and the Royals have Diania, her exact words to nick with a very shocked expression on her face were Kelly’s dead, like she couldn’t believe what had happened.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
Adalind’s reaction to Kelly’s death may have very well been genuine. She could have also been devastated that the Royals got to Kelly & Diana first.
But as you said: “the only thing that Adalind knew that nick didn’t was Kenneth was attempting to use Juliette to get information on Diania’s whereabouts”
No doubt, Nick should have been more wary of Juliette after their confrontation at the precinct without any input from Adalind. We agree Nick knew the Royals and Adalind were in Portland to find Diana. And since Kelly wasn’t in Portland, Nick should have suspected they would attempt to lure her there. I don’t think Adalind had any obligation to help Nick or Juliette, I’m only saying that Adalind knew Kenneth intended to strike an alliance with Juliette and chose not to tell Nick. If she wasn’t hoping that Kelly would bring Diana to Portland and she might could get her before Kenneth did; why wouldn’t she tell Nick anything she knew that might help protect them all from Juliette and Kenneth?