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+--- Thread: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's (/Thread-Who-s-heinous-acts-were-worse-Adalind-s-or-Juliette-s)
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
Nick’s higher expectations of Juliette and his anger toward her compared to that of Adalind was justified. But beyond his personal rationalization, I don’t see the argument for one’s actions being more heinous than the other.
Juliette was obviously complicit in getting Kelly to Portland, but the show didn’t confirm, probably by choice, whether she genuinely anticipated Kelly’s death. In comparison, Adalind approached Marie with purposeful intent to kill her. Kelly was Nick’s biological mother and with him for twelve years while Marie devoted her life to being Nick’s mother from age twelve to adulthood. So beyond Nick’s justified expectations of Juliette, the question becomes whether Juliette’s complicity is worse because Kelly actually died compared to Adalind’s failed attempt with Marie.
Some have argued that Adalind was equally culpable in Kelly's death because she knew of Kenneth’s plan and chose not to warn Nick. Personally, I don’t think Adalind had any obligation to anyone other than her daughter and unborn child, and herself. But from Nick’s point of view, I understand why Adalind’s inaction would be equal to Juliette’s action.
The show chose to ‘kill off’ Juliette, effectively ending any opportunity for Nick & Juliette to resolve the destruction of their relationship. At no time, did S5 even hint that Juliette was using the Eve persona as cover and faking a personal disconnect from her reign of terror as an angry Hexenbiest. For all intents and purposes, Juliette ceased to exist when Eve became the controlling personality. So I don’t understand how Juliette would be expected to follow Adalind’s change of heart, experiencing regret and offering amends when she no longer technically existed.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Robyn, how exactly would Adalinds inaction be similar to Juliette's action Adalind didn’t know the Royals knew were Kelly was, Adalind actually also thougth Juliette would never betray nick as she stated to Kenneth in 4x19. That’s a bit of a false equivalency if you ask me.
Juliette didn’t just succeed in getting Kelly to Portland she deliberately told Kelly the house was safe to enter while Kelly was outside speaking on the phone, Juliette then sits upstairs and listened to Kelly’s Murder that’s a hell of a lot more than just luring her to Portland. Juliette set with Kenneth and picked out which of her nieghbours would be attacked and probably killed by the Royals, She give kennth adivice not to underestimate Kelly.
Juliette is the reason kelly and the nieghbours are dead that is fact, if Juliette didn’t conspire with Kenneth both would still be alive. Adalind had absolutely nothing directly to do with Kelly’s death, the only thing Adalind knew was Kenneth was going to tell Juliette about the baby to try and turn her against Nick so he could get information on Kelly. Infact the only person Adalind conspired to kill was Kenneth as she helped Nick set him up, yes for her own interest but she still did it.
Below script in from 4x19 it’s from Kenneth Adalind conversation.
Kenneth- Burkhardt, about his mother, and therefore about where the child, your child, might be.
Adalind- Okay, she may have beat up a couple people in a bar, I mean, God knows we've all done that, but there is no way she's going to betray Nick, if that's where you're going.
Kenneth- It's surprising how quickly betrayal becomes a viable option, given the right circumstances.
Which right circumstances?
That’s the only thing Adalind knew about Kenneth’s plan how people can compare this to what Juliette did is seriously beyond my comprehension.
Juliette’s excat words in email luring Kelly to her death- Nicks in trouble if you don’t come he may be killed the house is safe.
Below is script from Kelly’s ambush
Juliette- Kelly.
Kelly- Juliette.
Kelly - Is everything okay?
Juliette- Thank God you're here.
Juliette- Nick's not home, but I am, and the front door's unlocked.
Kenneth- It's her, Kelly Burkhardt.
She's got the kid.
Kelly Juliette?
Kenneth-Let's take this outside.
Juliette-Thank God.
Diana.
Hey.
Kenneth- We got her! And we've got her
As you can see from the script Juliette led Kelly into the house under the guise it was safe, she set upstairs until the murder was over, until Kenneth came in and said we got her meaning Kelly then walked over to Juliette and Diania and said and we’ve got her meaning Diania.
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e21
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e19
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - dicappatore - 01-21-2018
(01-21-2018, 09:27 AM)Robyn Wrote: Nick’s higher expectations of Juliette and his anger toward her compared to that of Adalind was justified. But beyond his personal rationalization, I don’t see the argument for one’s actions being more heinous than the other.
Juliette was obviously complicit in getting Kelly to Portland, but the show didn’t confirm, probably by choice, whether she genuinely anticipated Kelly’s death. In comparison, Adalind approached Marie with purposeful intent to kill her. Kelly was Nick’s biological mother and with him for twelve years while Marie devoted her life to being Nick’s mother from age twelve to adulthood. So beyond Nick’s justified expectations of Juliette, the question becomes whether Juliette’s complicity is worse because Kelly actually died compared to Adalind’s failed attempt with Marie.
Some have argued that Adalind was equally culpable in Kelly's death because she knew of Kenneth’s plan and chose not to warn Nick. Personally, I don’t think Adalind had any obligation to anyone other than her daughter and unborn child, and herself. But from Nick’s point of view, I understand why Adalind’s inaction would be equal to Juliette’s action.
The show chose to ‘kill off’ Juliette, effectively ending any opportunity for Nick & Juliette to resolve the destruction of their relationship. At no time, did S5 even hint that Juliette was using the Eve persona as cover and faking a personal disconnect from her reign of terror as an angry Hexenbiest. For all intents and purposes, Juliette ceased to exist when Eve became the controlling personality. So I don’t understand how Juliette would be expected to follow Adalind’s change of heart, experiencing regret and offering amends when she no longer technically existed.
To, somehow believe that Adalind was just as bad as Juliette is really stretching your opinion. How the hell would Adalind know what Kenneth was planning to do with Juliette by getting her to betray Kelly. Juliette was still in jail. Kenneth still had no clue if and how cooperative Juliette would respond to him bailing her out and then going postal on Adalind/Nick pregnancy. I don’t recall being clairvoyant was one of the attributes of a Hexenbiest which you seem to easily place on Adalind.
As for Adalind’s attempt to kill off a dying Grimm, Marie compared to what Juliette did with Kelly is another stretch. I agree, both actions were planned to kill off a Grimm. Juliette was successful, Adalind was not. You just can’t look at intent, you have to, also, consider success. Kelly was not on her death bed when she was suckered into her death trap like Marie was. Hence, Juliette takes the cake, IMO.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
Adalind intended to kill Marie for personal gain. She put a deadly spell on Hank for personal gain. She put Juliette in a coma for revenge. Juliette helped Kenneth get Adalind’s daughter and kill Kelly for revenge and out of anger.
Personally, I don’t have any issue with Adalind doing whatever was necessary to get her baby back, but she was aware of Kenneth’s plans and the lengths he’d go to get Diana for King Frederick. Adalind telling Kenneth that Juliette wouldn’t betray Nick was based on her prior knowledge of their relationship, which quickly changed once Juliette confronted them at the precinct. Adalind didn’t share what she knew about Kenneth’s plan because she wanted Kelly to bring Diana to Portland and she was depending on Nick to prevent the Royals from taking her. In S4, as long as Juliette and the Royals weren’t left standing to harm her & the children, Adalind didn’t care what happened to Nick and his friends.
I think the more heinous act is that Juliette was willing to hand over an innocent child to obviously monstrous people to achieve her revenge against Adalind. But considering that Juliette had already participated in kidnapping the child while human, her lack of moral conscious as a Hexenbiest isn’t surprising. But then, Juliette’s heinous act isn’t about the child, it’s about Nick and Kelly.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - irukandji - 01-21-2018
I am curious about something. Adalind was with Kenneth and they were obviously working together to obtain Diana. Was Adalind under the impression that once Kenneth obtained Diana, he was going to hand the golden snowflake over to Adalind? Or was Adalind figuring that Kenneth had no intention of turning Diana over to her?
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Robyn ,So you believe Juliette’s minor involment in Diania’s kidnapping is somehow worse than having nieghbours you have lived next door to for 7 years years Murdered just for revenge kicks.
You are also clearly wrong Adalind did care what happened to Nick as she needed his protection no one else was going to protect a powerless Adalind with a grimm baby. The scobbies were expendable to Adalind certainly but Nick wasn’t the show made that pretty clear. That’s why the show had Adalind showing regret and compassion towards Nick in late season 4. For you to say Adalind didn’t care one way or the other if Nick lived or died really is a stretch to say the least, considering only a few days later in show canon in 5x02 Adalind is panicking at the thought of raising kelly without Nick.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
Adalind wasn’t only aware of the original plan, she was an active participant. The plan had always been to lure Kelly to Portland. Why would she suddenly assume Kenneth no longer needed Kelly in Portland? If anything, Adalind was counting on him accomplishing that so she’d have an opportunity, with Nick’s help, to get Diana. Had Adalind warned Nick he would have immediately warned his mother, which would have squashed any chance Adalind had to get Diana back. Adalind wasn’t looking to make a home with Nick in S4. She was only addressing immediate needs - protection and getting Diana.
The neighbors’ deaths, like Kelly’s, was the result of Juliette helping Kenneth lure Kelly, and the baby, to Portland. Why would Juliette help Kenneth get the baby other than to hurt Adalind? It’s a reasonable assumption that Juliette knew Kenneth would have Kelly killed, but she wasn’t shown plotting with Kenneth to kill Kelly, only plotting with him to lure Kelly, and the baby, to Portland.
Juliette’s intent doesn’t make the neighbor’s or Kelly’s deaths less heinous, it only makes those deaths the result of her actions.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Henry of green - 01-21-2018
Robyn, she also made sure Kelly’s guard was down by giving her false information and lured her into a death trap in the house and willing give kennth advice not to underestimate Kelly. The Royals original plan was to find Kelly not lure her to Portland, as far as Adalind knew Kenneth was looking for Juliette to give them information of Kelly’s whereabouts. Adalind had no idea Kelly was being lured to Portland once agian your stretching . Kenneth words to Adalind about Juliette were about Juliette knowing where Kelly and Diania might be, there was zero discussion about luring her to Portland. Kenneth came up with the idea of luring Kelly to Portland after talking to Juliette and her telling him she didn’t no were Kelly was, he then asked if she had a way of contacting Kelly then the plan of luring her to town was created.
Kenneth would never have shared his plans with Adalind he thought her a useless waste of space who was of very little use to him. Kenneth and Viktor's original plans were to find Kelly’s whereabouts and take the child and probably kill Kelly not lead her to Portland for a trap.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - Robyn - 01-21-2018
The original plan was to barter Juliette for Diana, which is why Adalind went to Juliette’s home. Had Juliette not been a Hexenbiest, the original plan might have played out. If so, Kelly’s death probably wouldn’t have happened. But Juliette’s might have. Adalind wouldn’t have cared about either’s death. She only wanted Diana back, and was willing to take Juliette to Kenneth if it meant getting her from Kelly.
You keep insisting that I’m stretching the facts to make Juliette less heinous than Adalind. I’m not suggesting either character is more heinous than the other. Nor am I allowing Adalind’s future relationship with Nick to skew her S4 intent and lack of concern for Kelly, Juliette, and Nick and his friends.
Again, I don’t have any issue with anything Adalind did to get Diana back or to protect herself and unborn child. But. I don’t have any illusion of Adalind as an unaware victim of Kenneth’s and Juliette’s dastardly plans.
The original plan was to barter Juliette for Diana, which is why Adalind went to Juliette’s home. Had Juliette not been a Hexenbiest, the original plan might have played out. If so, Kelly’s death probably wouldn’t have happened. But Juliette’s might have. Adalind wouldn’t have cared about either’s death. She only wanted Diana back, and was willing to take Juliette to Kenneth if it meant getting her from Kelly.
You keep insisting that I’m stretching the facts to make Juliette less heinous than Adalind. I’m not suggesting either character is more heinous than the other. Nor am I allowing Adalind’s future relationship with Nick to skew her S4 intent and lack of concern for Kelly, Juliette, and Nick and his friends.
Again, I don’t have any issue with anything Adalind did to get Diana back or to protect herself and unborn child. But. I don’t have any illusion of Adalind as an unaware victim of Kenneth’s and Juliette’s dastardly plans.
RE: Who's heinous acts were worse, Adalind's or Juliette's - irukandji - 01-21-2018
(01-21-2018, 04:49 PM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind wasn’t only aware of the original plan, she was an active participant. The plan had always been to lure Kelly to Portland. Why would she suddenly assume Kenneth no longer needed Kelly in Portland? If anything, Adalind was counting on him accomplishing that so she’d have an opportunity, with Nick’s help, to get Diana.
This is what I was looking for. It sounds like Kenneth was never planning on handing Diana over to Adalind. However, Adalind intended to help Kenneth obtain Diana.
I am in agreement with you that the intent was to lure Kelly into Portland with Diana, whether Kenneth did the luring with Adalind at his side or with Juliette at his side.