+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: Juliette and Renard's fight (/Thread-Juliette-and-Renard-s-fight)
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - dicappatore - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 04:08 AM)New Guy Wrote:(11-02-2017, 03:18 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Nick being enchanted with the Musai is similar to what happened to Juliette. I don't think he or anyone who fell under her spell should be held accountable either. They had little to no control over their own actions. Their autonomy was taken away from them.Hello HR,
I know this wouldn't console any of the family and friends of victims but I think you're being a little harsh here.
For example, I don't give anyone a pass for anything they do while drunk because they decided to get drunk in the first place. However, what if that person is someone who never drinks but had their drink spiked with potent alcohol? Is it fair to hold that person responsible for everything they did while drunk? They didn't even plan on drinking, let alone get drunk, but some asshole decided to spike their drink. Doe this person deserve your ire?
Yes people are responsible for their actions. A society that does not hold people accountable has anarchy. Anything goes without consequence.
Your spiked drink example is incomplete. If the person drinks it, becomes intoxicated, calls a cab and goes home is one way to leave them innocent. If instead they commit an act of violence then plead innocence because they were intoxicated they deserve prosecution for the crime. Would you give them a pass if the intoxicated person attacked, raped or murdered your child?
It isn't the alcohol, drugs, spell, potion or "evil spirit" that is responsible, it is the perpetrator of the crime. Nick knows that and wanted to confess to killing the guy in the bar while under the influence of zombie madness.
N G
As I see it HR, your example does place blame with the person that spiked the drink but it does not excuse the drunk. Over the years, when I go out or to a party I do not drink excessIlly. If I drink a beer, it’s from a bottle I opened or a bartender. If I am drinking from a glass I don’t leave it unattended. I do this because, I believe, If I put myself in a compromising situation I feel I will be ultimately responsible for it. It’s also what I taught my kids.
My take of the results of Juliette coma after-effects do excuse her for her feelings for Sean which was similar to his effects from the Muse. She also had no control of her memory loss of Nick. But her behavior with the freedom of not being in the relationship she had forgotten was no excuse to treat the man that was still in her life like she did.
But at this point in the game I still would have forgiven her. Once we jump to the after-effects of her assisting on Nick getting his Grimm back, all bets are off the bitch. Where was her understanding and patience of waiting for Nick to come around?
Now, some will toss this up to the poor writings of the development team doing a lousy job, and I strongly agree that they did. IMO, we have to diagnose these characters as they were written not as we wished they were.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - Hell Rell - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 04:08 AM)New Guy Wrote:(11-02-2017, 03:18 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Nick being enchanted with the Musai is similar to what happened to Juliette. I don't think he or anyone who fell under her spell should be held accountable either. They had little to no control over their own actions. Their autonomy was taken away from them.Hello HR,
I know this wouldn't console any of the family and friends of victims but I think you're being a little harsh here.
For example, I don't give anyone a pass for anything they do while drunk because they decided to get drunk in the first place. However, what if that person is someone who never drinks but had their drink spiked with potent alcohol? Is it fair to hold that person responsible for everything they did while drunk? They didn't even plan on drinking, let alone get drunk, but some asshole decided to spike their drink. Doe this person deserve your ire?
Yes people are responsible for their actions. A society that does not hold people accountable has anarchy. Anything goes without consequence.
Your spiked drink example is incomplete. If the person drinks it, becomes intoxicated, calls a cab and goes home is one way to leave them innocent. If instead they commit an act of violence then plead innocence because they were intoxicated they deserve prosecution for the crime. Would you give them a pass if the intoxicated person attacked, raped or murdered your child?
It isn't the alcohol, drugs, spell, potion or "evil spirit" that is responsible, it is the perpetrator of the crime. Nick knows that and wanted to confess to killing the guy in the bar while under the influence of zombie madness.
N G
The perpetrator of the crime is the one who spiked the drink. Of course, I wouldn't feel any better about what happened and I would probably hate that person but that's also the reason why an impartial jury is required. They're supposed to look at the cold hard facts of the case to make a decision. It may be impossible to do but that's the goal.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - brandon - 11-03-2017
She did not expect Nick to accept him bit by bit and that could also mean that she was tired of the relationship with the "GRIMM" and everything that happened.
Nick was not the culprit, whoever was his partner had to accept that side of his life
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - Hell Rell - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 04:43 AM)dicappatore Wrote: As I see it HR, your example does place blame with the person that spiked the drink but it does not excuse the drunk. Over the years, when I go out or to a party I do not drink excessively. If I drink a beer, it’s from a bottle I opened or a bartender. If I am drinking from a glass I don’t leave it unattended. I do this because, I believe, If I put myself in a compromising situation I feel I will be ultimately responsible for it.
I was in a situation like this but not as extreme. I don't drink at all and one of my friends pretended to pour some of his alcohol in my drink so I always held it even though I don't actually think he would've done it. I don't think it's funny and I would absolutely feel guilty about anything I did under the influence if someone managed to get one over me. I always try to stay alcohol-free but I'm not exempt from being duped just once in my life and I don't think anyone else is either. I'm not going to blame the drunk, who will probably need a lifetime of therapy if they something truly horrible, because some asshole decided to spike their drink.
We can use someone who was drugged while hospitalized as an example too. Some doctor screwing up and giving a patient some drugs they had no business taking and it leading them to make decisions they wouldn't have made without the drugs shouldn't be held against the patient.
I didn't really get into the entirety of Juliette's plot in season 2. I was just addressing the issue of her getting hot and bothered and stating she should not be held accountable for it. I'm not talking about who should've moved out or how she should've handled anything else.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - New Guy - 11-03-2017
Hello Forum,
Alcohol and drugs are closely related to criminal activity:
https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/alcohol/crimes/
Quote:Alcohol plays a large role in criminal activities and violence. Excessive drinking has the ability to lower inhibitions, impair a person’s judgement and increase the risk of aggressive behaviors. Because of this, alcohol-related violence and crime rates are on the rise throughout the country.https://addictionresource.com/alcohol-rehab/the-effects-of-alcohol/alcohol-related-crimes/
Over the past several decades, researchers have examined the relationship between alcohol, drugs and crime. Data suggests that engaging in prolonged drinking or binge drinking significantly increases your risk of committing violent offenses.
Quote:Although legal, alcohol is widely considered a drug as any other illicit substance, due to having similar, if not worse effects on the human mind and body. The fact that it is so easy to obtain, combined with its adverse negative effects on a person’s inhibition and ability to make rational decisions, makes it the number one cause for aggressive criminal offenses.Note in the second article the author [alcohol is] "number one cause for aggressive criminal offenses."
Some perpetrators of violent crime claim alcohol as the cause, trying to evade responsibility:
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/criminal-defenses-excuse-and-exculpation-defenses
Quote:Involuntary intoxication doesn't excuse criminal conduct. The law expects a person to know that drinking and taking drugs affects mental functioning and therefore holds one legally responsible for acts occurring under the influence.In regard to the "fight" and potion induced infatuation, Renard voluntarily took the potion and Juliette involuntarily (by cat scratch and kiss) got it. IMO, they are responsible for the fight and destruction of Nick's house. They both seemed to be aware that the potion/spell was affecting their inhibitions and behavior. They are fully responsible for their actions not the potion/spell.
However, a defendant may use the under the influence defense to claim mental faculties were so impaired due to drugs or alcohol that he or she should not be held accountable for actions taken. The key is specific intent, i.e., meaning to kill the victim. The defendant will argue he or she was too drunk or stoned to have formed intent. This defense is unlikely to win an acquittal but it could get the accused a lesser sentence (assault with a deadly weapon instead of assault with intent to kill).
N G
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - Hell Rell - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 12:19 PM)New Guy Wrote: In regard to the "fight" and potion induced infatuation, Renard voluntarily took the potion and Juliette involuntarily (by cat scratch and kiss) got it. IMO, they are responsible for the fight and destruction of Nick's house. They both seemed to be aware that the potion/spell was affecting their inhibitions and behavior. They are fully responsible for their actions not the potion/spell.
N G
Juliette wasn't aware she was under a spell. How would she know that was affecting her feelings/actions like Renard did?
The truth was still being withheld from Juliette. Whether it was for her own good or not doesn't change that fact.
Is Juliette going to be blamed for doing her job now? She only got affected by that spell because she was at work when Adalind brought her cat in and she checked it out.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - dicappatore - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 01:15 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(11-03-2017, 12:19 PM)New Guy Wrote: In regard to the "fight" and potion induced infatuation, Renard voluntarily took the potion and Juliette involuntarily (by cat scratch and kiss) got it. IMO, they are responsible for the fight and destruction of Nick's house. They both seemed to be aware that the potion/spell was affecting their inhibitions and behavior. They are fully responsible for their actions not the potion/spell.
N G
Juliette wasn't aware she was under a spell. How would she know that was affecting her feelings/actions like Renard did?
The truth was still being withheld from Juliette. Whether it was for her own good or not doesn't change that fact.
Is Juliette going to be blamed for doing her job now? She only got affected by that spell because she was at work when Adalind brought her cat in and she checked it out.
Yea, but how many times was she told it was the cat's scratch. Including the Spanish speaking woman in the “La Llonora” episode, which came across as if she had high regards for her. When Nick told her that, Adalind was a witch, all she was thinking about ws, Nick had an affair with her. She had plenty of other advice that it was related to that cat’s scratch.
I know she was a Vet and was technically an expert on cats compared to all her critics. She would take no advice, so yea, just like she was partially responsible for becoming a Hex, her stubbornness contributed to her coma.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - silver - 11-03-2017
It's a story -- as a human story, all of us are sometimes going to be unpredictable and illogical, no matter how intelligent. It's psychological the ways we sometimes act and Juliette's no different. It's psychological AND emotional, no matter what our 'base' personality traits are.
I thought she was noble in the Graussen story, and there was another one that stood out but forgot which story. In those, she put others before her own needs. In the cat scratch part, she was poo-pooing the idea of it being a cat scratch erroneously because of her experience and training. She was also playing down her own needs, in spite of all the people telling her and warning her about Adalind.
I think blame is just a game, in some instances...not helping towards any greater truth(s).
Btw, loved the 'angry love dance' J and R did! That was great.
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - New Guy - 11-03-2017
(11-03-2017, 01:15 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:Hi HR,(11-03-2017, 12:19 PM)New Guy Wrote: In regard to the "fight" and potion induced infatuation, Renard voluntarily took the potion and Juliette involuntarily (by cat scratch and kiss) got it. IMO, they are responsible for the fight and destruction of Nick's house. They both seemed to be aware that the potion/spell was affecting their inhibitions and behavior. They are fully responsible for their actions not the potion/spell.
N G
Juliette wasn't aware she was under a spell. How would she know that was affecting her feelings/actions like Renard did?
The truth was still being withheld from Juliette. Whether it was for her own good or not doesn't change that fact.
Is Juliette going to be blamed for doing her job now? She only got affected by that spell because she was at work when Adalind brought her cat in and she checked it out.
The "cat scratch spell/potion" began in 1.22, "Woman in Black." It is also that episode where Nick took her to the trailer, showed her the books and told her about Wesen. She flips out and believes he is insane. He takes her to see Monroe to prove Wesen are real, but she falls into a coma and they take her to the hospital.
In 2.08, "The Other Side" Renard give a speech at a dinner:
Quote:At Juliette’s house, Juliette and Nick get ready to go to Nick’s work function. Nick warns Juliette that the function will be boring and Captain Renard will be giving a long speech. Juliette ’s expression wavers at the mention of the Captain, but she shrugs it off and goes anyway.Note that stalker Renard also goes into the house, checks her out in the shower and breaks the picture of N&J.
At the PD work function, Renard gives his speech, all the while throwing glances at Juliette. Juliette is just as captivated by him. After the speech, Renard has drinks with Wu , Juliette, Nick and Hank . The latter two are called in for Brandon’s homicide, and Renard offers to take Juliette home while Nick is away.
Renard drops Juliette off at her house, but doesn’t drive away. Juliette goes to take a shower. On the way in, she notices a framed photo of her and Nick. Juliette hears someone, and thinks that it’s Nick. When she comes out to check though, there is no one in the house, and the framed photograph of her and Nick is cracked.
In 2.11, "To Protect and Serve" Juliette admits to her friend about her and Renard. Renard gets her to agree to see Monroe about their "attraction.":
Quote:Meanwhile, Monroe is at the spice shop, and he is surprised when Renard enters with a woman. Monroe, understanding why Renard is there, heads into the back room to prepare. While Monroe is gone, Renard and the woman abruptly embrace and engage in a passionate kiss. Monroe reenters in the middle of this, and minding his manners, looks away. However, when the couple stop kissing and the woman turns her head to look at Monroe, Monroe is shocked to discover that it's Juliette.IMO it seems that both Renard and Juliette are aware of the "attraction." They go to a Wesen apothecary about it. Renard knew about the "spell" and Juliette knew she had been in a coma, nearly died and now has the hots for Nick's boss who she barely knows. So how is it that it is Monroe who can help? She may not call it a spell, but something is not normal.
So in 2.13 "Face Off" it comes to a head. Monroe tells Rosalee about the R-J-N triangle. The "fight" (see post#1) happens:
Quote:Renard shows up to talk to Juliette, and they start making out. Nick silently creeps up on them without being seen. Monroe then calls him, and he decides to return to Monroe's house. Juliette then tries to stop, and Renard tries to make her keep going, saying he can't stop. Juliette then fires at Renard with his own gun, which he then grabs. Renard then leaves moments before a police car shows up with Wu. Nick and a few other officers show up later as well, and Nick tries to speak to Juliette about it. He says he knows who the other man is, and that he wants to deal with this.Things are getting worse:
Quote:At the Spice Shop, Rosalee tells Monroe and Nick that the Royal in Portland must have been the one Catherine Schade made the purification process for. ("The Kiss") Monroe then determines that Renard is the Royal in Portland. Rosalee tells them they have to figure out how to counteract the spell quickly, because if it is allowed to progress much further, one of them will kill the other.Renard steals Nick's key. They eventually "Face Off":
Quote: Nick receives a call from Renard. He offers to meet up with Nick at "somewhere out of the way."The next scenes have Nick, Juliette and Renard taking potions Rosalee cooked up to break the "fatal attraction spell." IMO, by the time Juliette drank the cure potion, she was fully aware of the spell. IMO, she likely knew this when Renard took her to see Monroe. That was prior to the R&J "fight."
Nick drives to this location and waits for Renard. He then sees a doll on the ground and remembers that this is the cabin where the Postman from "Pilot" lived. He also recalls how the doll got there (he gunned the Postman down, and the doll landed there), when Renard arrives. He offers to talk this out with Nick, who instead punches him. A short melee fight ensues. Renard then woges in front of Nick for the first time, revealing to him his true nature. Nick is horrified, but Renard then explains that he is on Nick's side, and has known about it much longer than him. He also explains that he didn't want Marie to be killed, and that he regretted hiding it from Nick. Nick asks him about Juliette and Renard tells him that nobody wants the thing with Juliette to end more than he does. Nick says he is going to have to prove that and Renard tells him if he knew how, he would. Nick says to Renard: "I know how."
Nick and Renard show up at Juliette's door. She answers it and says, "Now what?"
So, HR, the answer to your question:
Quote:Juliette wasn't aware she was under a spell. How would she know that was affecting her feelings/actions like Renard did?She did know something was suppressing her inhibitions and she was in full lustful fatal attraction to Renard. The problem was that she did nothing to suppress the attraction and ignored her inhibitions. She was too morally weak to deal with it on her own. The cure spell was temporary and in season 4 she tosses her inhibitions out the window satisfies her lust for Renard.
N G
RE: Juliette and Renard's fight - brandon - 11-03-2017
What she would see weird is to feel attraction towards who does not or rarely had seen.
I do not think she will visit the precint daily.
Because Nick took the potion?
I think it was so they could use their blood.