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+--- Thread: The Stick? (/Thread-The-Stick)
RE: The Stick? - Rotkäppchen - 03-14-2016
I found a manuscript talking about the "True Cross" and in it there are references to Constantinople, Hadrian's (just a short sentence so far - but mentioned) and the Knights etc.
I scrolled through a bit rapidly and found the section about "miracles of the True Cross" and this is what is what it said (after talking about how pieces would be trimmed from it and then later saying how it had been cut into 19 pieces and they talked about how there are small pieces - from the trimmings all over the world) anyway here's what I found interesting:
"Even its smallest fragments have been known to be miracle working; the sick have been healed, demons cast out, and protection afforded to those who wear and venerate it."
DEMONS CAST OUT ... Adalind? Eve?
So many possibilities and so many ways depending on whose hands it falls into make it very much significant and a reason IMO to hide it. Wielding that type of power is dangerous in and of itself. Perhaps Nick will trim a small piece for Adalind or even Eve perhaps. Telling one or the other (or both) that this will remove your biest ...
On another note, Adalind's powers are different. She didn't go all crypt-keeper on us. You saw the muscles change - after she grabbed her tummy "the biest was woke" and erupted ... yet when the water started to boil there was no shift in her demeanor OR her muscles ... it just happened. With Eve she still turns all crypt-keeper on us to use powers; or her eyes go all creepfest LOL when she would woge Nick could NOT look at her and Adalind isn't changing into that so he doesn't have to worry about "that happening" and being all turned off from it as in kissing a bag of icky bones etc. So, is Adalind much stronger than Eve now?
I also had read that the zombie references that people keep referring to regarding Nick is NOT something they are resurrecting or even venturing out on; that it was completed at the end of that episode. Nick is not a zombie. His powers are enhanced and that is something different and not related to the zombie thing. Making me more cautionary in that when Nick destroys a Wesen his powers change and adapt - similar to what he was fighting against and/or destroyed. As in taking certain qualities or growing certain ones as a Grimm. Hence, why they killed Wesen to become stronger and better Grimms. It was an older article that was referenced in btw regarding the zombie thing. I will try to find it in a bit (little later on) and post it. But I find it interesting theorizing that maybe Nick "needs" to fight and destroy Wesen in order to not be as weak and gain more strength as a Grimm along with better abilities to fight and gain perhaps new qualities and skills as a Grimm. Just a thought ...
RE: The Stick? - New Guy - 03-14-2016
(03-14-2016, 06:59 AM)Rotkäppchen Wrote: I found a manuscript talking about the "True Cross" and in it there are references to Constantinople, Hadrian's (just a short sentence so far - but mentioned) and the Knights etc.Hello Rotkäppchen,
I scrolled through a bit rapidly and found the section about "miracles of the True Cross" and this is what is what it said (after talking about how pieces would be trimmed from it and then later saying how it had been cut into 19 pieces and they talked about how there are small pieces - from the trimmings all over the world) anyway here's what I found interesting:
"Even its smallest fragments have been known to be miracle working; the sick have been healed, demons cast out, and protection afforded to those who wear and venerate it."
DEMONS CAST OUT ... Adalind? Eve?
So many possibilities and so many ways depending on whose hands it falls into make it very much significant and a reason IMO to hide it. Wielding that type of power is dangerous in and of itself. Perhaps Nick will trim a small piece for Adalind or even Eve perhaps. Telling one or the other (or both) that this will remove your biest ...
On another note, Adalind's powers are different. She didn't go all crypt-keeper on us. You saw the muscles change - after she grabbed her tummy "the biest was woke" and erupted ... yet when the water started to boil there was no shift in her demeanor OR her muscles ... it just happened. With Eve she still turns all crypt-keeper on us to use powers; or her eyes go all creepfest LOL when she would woge Nick could NOT look at her and Adalind isn't changing into that so he doesn't have to worry about "that happening" and being all turned off from it as in kissing a bag of icky bones etc. So, is Adalind much stronger than Eve now?
I also had read that the zombie references that people keep referring to regarding Nick is NOT something they are resurrecting or even venturing out on; that it was completed at the end of that episode. Nick is not a zombie. His powers are enhanced and that is something different and not related to the zombie thing. Making me more cautionary in that when Nick destroys a Wesen his powers change and adapt - similar to what he was fighting against and/or destroyed. As in taking certain qualities or growing certain ones as a Grimm. Hence, why they killed Wesen to become stronger and better Grimms. It was an older article that was referenced in btw regarding the zombie thing. I will try to find it in a bit (little later on) and post it. But I find it interesting theorizing that maybe Nick "needs" to fight and destroy Wesen in order to not be as weak and gain more strength as a Grimm along with better abilities to fight and gain perhaps new qualities and skills as a Grimm. Just a thought ...
Interesting post. It the stick is a "True Cross" relic is it a portal to the Almighty? If so it can infallibly discern good and evil and can provide miracles that lead to good. Where do you suppose the other 18 pieces are?
New Guy
RE: The Stick? - tscchope - 03-14-2016
The True Cross was used by the Byzantines as a battle standard to rally troops not to take trimmings from. It's unlikely to have been in the City on its sack by the Venetian's hired crusaders.
The True Cross most likely found its way to Rome by way of Venice. Taken there as part of the ransom for John V and the Byzantine crown jewels by Manuel, later Manuel II. From Venice it went to Rome in exchange for favours for the Doge. Rome then started using it as a relic by trimming and later dividing it up to pay for the rebuilding of Rome and the construction of St Peter's Basilica to give the west roman church a building to rival Hagia Sophia.
Nick certainly wasn't venerating the stick when he used it on Monroe, by accident. Rome would certainly have talked up the miraculous powers of the "relic" to potential buyers.
Was it coincidence that Nick's super hearing kicked in at the same time Adalind's powers were coming back? We also don't know if Nick is unique amongst Grimm in being able to acquire wesen characteristics on a seemingly random basis. We know nothing about his Kessler grandfather's wife or about Nick's father's family. There are insufficient data to form a hypothesis.
RE: The Stick? - Rotkäppchen - 03-14-2016
(03-14-2016, 08:17 AM)tscchope Wrote: The True Cross was used by the Byzantines as a battle standard to rally troops not to take trimmings from. It's unlikely to have been in the City on its sack by the Venetian's hired crusaders.
The True Cross most likely found its way to Rome by way of Venice. Taken there as part of the ransom for John V and the Byzantine crown jewels by Manuel, later Manuel II. From Venice it went to Rome in exchange for favours for the Doge. Rome then started using it as a relic by trimming and later dividing it up to pay for the rebuilding of Rome and the construction of St Peter's Basilica to give the west roman church a building to rival Hagia Sophia.
Nick certainly wasn't venerating the stick when he used it on Monroe, by accident. Rome would certainly have talked up the miraculous powers of the "relic" to potential buyers.
Was it coincidence that Nick's super hearing kicked in at the same time Adalind's powers were coming back? We also don't know if Nick is unique amongst Grimm in being able to acquire wesen characteristics on a seemingly random basis. We know nothing about his Kessler grandfather's wife or about Nick's father's family. There are insufficient data to form a hypothesis.
They DID take trimmings from it - and Constantinople put them in certain things (small pieces) and even had them take and bury small trimmings to certain locations; it was stated that no matter how many trimmings it never got smaller. At the end it was made into 19 pieces. They were stating of all the weight and sizes and then compared to the actual size of the cross that what has been referenced in all literature would never have been enough to equal the actual size of the cross. Which I found interesting.
I can link the article if you'd like to read it for yourself. When I say trimming it's just as it sounds like a sliver IMO. This goes through several years and how it was encased about Constantinople's mom etc. I have skimmed a lot of it and I'm not done I just happened to scroll further down and saw the bit on the "miracles of ..." and commented on that.
I don't even know if that is what the show is eluding to. It could very well be from the Tree of Life or as some have said even Merlin's wand; who knows. When I read about the "spear" it said that the handle I believe it was which was a staph was wooden but that it had an iron piercing tip or part of it was iron and not wood. Also, it talked about the nails and all too; about all the pieces that Constantinople had and where he placed them and some he wore/adorned on certain pieces of items he wore ...wasn't getting into a theological debate only commenting on what I read from the Journal of Orthodox Faith and Culture. It was a little different and because I read the sentence regarding Hadrian's too I found it interesting.
With us not knowing where the writers are pulling or using their "history" from ie what source I thought well, you never know. I don't IMO see them being completely biblical and will do mesh of various things perhaps or what fits from one thing and then something from another perhaps. Reading this and it being a tad different and all I just found it interesting. Mainly due to the "casting out of demons" since the Hexenbiest is like a demon living inside of you ...
I also wasn't forming any type of "hypothesis" regarding Nick; I only referenced that the writers (Kouf and Greenwalt) stated that the zombie part is over and done and that they would not be doing anything about that. The rest was pure SPECULATION on my part wondering if that maybe by defeating certain wesen he gets stronger or gets new skills or takes something from those wesen or it acquires a new skill for him from certain ones that he defeats/kills. That was all.
To me they seem to be using magic - considering that his Grimm blood was needed to break the seal on the bronze box that held the wrap which was around the 'stick' that we may never know exactly what it is (they may lead us toward a certain thought and let the viewer make up their own mind so that they can freely write it anyway they choose and wish - since it is a FANTASY and not real life. To me (again my opinion) for that box to be sealed by the blood of a Grimm they had to have some sort of incantation for it to work otherwise you're just smearing blood on it so who better to help them do that than a hexenbiest or someone else that practices magic/spells etc. Just having fun with the show - to me that is what it is about. I'm not trying to nail it down and peg it for some history channel lesson - it's a great show that I truly enjoy and hope that it's renewed. To me if they totally come out and say "it's the True Cross" or whatever there may be a lot of arrrghghh groans and people flip it off and stop watching. As I'm not sure how that will really help in defeating BC and all that - I mean to a point but in doing so then what you're going to have to let it fall into enemy hands at some point then the struggle of good/evil to get it back and someone bad will go good and help and bla bla bla been there done that too many (not saying here but it's reaching and usually when they go well we're forked and nobody is really watching anymore because it's no longer a show about Wesen and Grimm but having to write about the blood of Christ and all that) dammit then, just bury it again *sigh* plus, it's already been in a couple of interviews where they said regarding BC ... is it over/do they prevail (Nick and Gang) and they go well yeah, kind of and then they're asked will they be back and they again hint at well, yeah, you haven't exactly seen the last of them (meaning BC) ... soooo, I just want the show to be dark, fun, enjoyable, and not make my brain hurt thinking about Rome, and and what way and which way and exchanging favors etc because I don't see it getting that technical and talking about rebuilding this or that and addressing all those things - could they do it, sure. In doing so, I guess then so and so is going to be a Grimm or a Wesen and all the bad things that happen will be blamed just on Wesen alone and not just bad people - BUT like with the show coming up Friday: that mask is for ANYONE that wears it - they get Wesen-like strength so then that makes you go hmmmm and we go back to the struggle of good/bad and how wesen influences impact even everyday normal humans; so I dunno. I just don't want a sunday school lesson - no offense to anyone or anything. If they do it I just feel like they may be walking a thin line with viewers and they'd have to do it a very clever way but then again it's why I like Grimm as they are clever or were LOL here's to hoping they keep or get back to being clever and get picked up for S6.
I also have no idea what I have written or how badly my writing is as I'm writing this so quickly LOL so apologies right now. My box is so tiny and I can only see one line above and I'm all over the place writing about things. Plus, I'm just pretty ignorant on a lot of subjects and would never venture to say I'm not or that I know the Bible front to back and all that there is to know about all religions or the true cross or relics or anything to do with that time period and crusaders etc. I know about the Free Mason and Masons; that's about it
and what I know about that isn't much or even things I'm allowed to speak of as they say HAHAHave a super day! I just love reading all the theories and I'm ready to pop some popcorn drizzle some chocolate over it and sit in front of the tele Friday and enjoy Grimm!
RE: The Stick? - tscchope - 03-14-2016
(03-14-2016, 09:15 AM)Rotkäppchen Wrote: They DID take trimmings from it - and Constantinople put them in certain things (small pieces) and even had them take and bury small trimmings to certain locations; it was stated that no matter how many trimmings it never got smaller.
There's a much simpler explanation. The reason it never got smaller was the trimmings didn't come from it. The Patriarch would never have allowed it to be cut up. The Catholic buyers were far less trusting.
The nails and crown of thorns were also considered relics. The sliver could be from the crown, if they went that way. To look pristine after 800 years in a box, it would have to be 'magical'. I didn't recognize the wood the stick was made out of.
As for Emperor Hadrian, he'd have destroyed it and any other Christian relic had he found any.
RE: The Stick? - jsgrimm45 - 05-01-2016
I'm not sure we will ever know where the relic came from. Now that being said will it be of use against BC and or Conrad? I thought we might get to see used on Wu but no. The writes brought it to Portland will it be used in Season 5 again or is this a season 6 thing?
Also shouldn't they have the Aramaic part of done by now which might give us a little more insight into its powers? Could it be the counter to Conrad or LBB?
RE: The Stick? - irukandji - 05-03-2016
(05-01-2016, 06:18 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: I'm not sure we will ever know where the relic came from. Now that being said will it be of use against BC and or Conrad? I thought we might get to see used on Wu but no. The writes brought it to Portland will it be used in Season 5 again or is this a season 6 thing?
Also shouldn't they have the Aramaic part of done by now which might give us a little more insight into its powers? Could it be the counter to Conrad or LBB?
I think they're planning on saving this for the next season, js. I've been thinking about the stick and for the time being, I am convinced it is not the true cross or any Christian relic. While there are miracles attributed to Christian relics and holy places, not every pilgrim that makes the journey or touches an artifact benefits from a miracle. Those people are completely different from Nick in one aspect; they believe in Christianity and have faith. There's no evidence that Nick is a Christian or has any belief in God.
I also do not think a relic such as the true cross or other holy relic would be in a bronze box lined with Grimm blood. That doesn't seem to make sense with regard to a holy relic.
The relic could be of hexenbiest origin, and the Grimm blood is there as a warning to keep hexenbiests away from it. Or, it could be some kind of Grimm relic, precious and holy to Grimms, and that's why their blood marks the box. It also could be the reason why Nick was able to use it to heal Monroe.
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-03-2016
They can never really know for sure what the stick is. At best, they could figure out what the people the seven grimm knights took the stick from thought it was. And if, as in the story Nick was told, the knights found it in Constantinople, they probably didn't take it from some pagan potentate, but from a church of the Eastern Orthodoxy (the crusaders were equal opportunity sackers who pillaged anyone who wasn't Roman Catholic, including other Christian sects).
Stories about the miraculous healing powers of known relics of the TC are all anecdotal, and although many of them have had scrapings taken for carbon dating, none has ever been objectively demonstrated to have any special powers. John Calvin is said to have commented that if all the claimed relics of the TC were gathered together there would be enough wood to build a bridge. Which in the Grimmiverse would lead to the conclusion that they're all fakes and the little piece the seven grimms decided to box up and bury is the only real one there is. I don't think we are supposed to believe that the seven grimms found the stick in that chest. They had the chest and its seven keyed lock made and then sealed it so only they could open it.
One of Nick's books relates the tale of one of his ancestors meeting a Japanese grimm, who would probably not have been one of his relatives. The seven grimms were probably the ancestors of the Kesslers and other grimms of European extraction, not the only grimms there have ever been, so grimm powers would not come from the stick.
RE: The Stick? - irukandji - 05-04-2016
I'm not saying Grimm powers would have come from the stick. What I am saying is it might be a Grimm relic. I have been wondering for some time now if Grimms and hexenbiests may have been related, species wise. If that was the case, then Grimms may have had the power to cast spells, just like hexenbiest have the power to move huge boulders. Grimms may have had the power to transform inanimate objects into powerful talismans. As time went on, Grimms went their separate ways and used their powers as Grimms.
Nick was the one who held the stick when it healed Monroe. He is not a Christian and has done some terrible things, so for a holy relic to work for him just seems out of the question to me. However, he does have faith in the Grimm legacy. If this is a Grimm artifact, that might be the reason why he was able to heal Monroe.
RE: The Stick? - Kathryn Wooten - 05-04-2016
(05-04-2016, 04:51 AM)irukandji Wrote: I'm not saying Grimm powers would have come from the stick. What I am saying is it might be a Grimm relic. I have been wondering for some time now if Grimms and hexenbiests may have been related, species wise. If that was the case, then Grimms may have had the power to cast spells, just like hexenbiest have the power to move huge boulders. Grimms may have had the power to transform inanimate objects into powerful talismans. As time went on, Grimms went their separate ways and used their powers as Grimms.
Nick was the one who held the stick when it healed Monroe. He is not a Christian and has done some terrible things, so for a holy relic to work for him just seems out of the question to me. However, he does have faith in the Grimm legacy. If this is a Grimm artifact, that might be the reason why he was able to heal Monroe.
I wonder what would happen if a royal touches it ( I guess it depends if they have a good heart or a evil one) which one I Renard?) he eems after the "cleansing"to kiss Juliette he has not done evil against the Scooby gang.