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+--- Thread: The Stick? (/Thread-The-Stick)
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-04-2016
Yes, they'd want the relic, but they want it because it's powerful.
Likewise, the seven knights decided to hide it because it's powerful.
My point was that the reason it was hidden from the royals and why it's coveted by the power-seeking today is what it can do. Not any religious significance it may have.
The whole argument about using the stick for good or evil is a huge can of worms. If you used it to save someone's life but that someone was the dictator of a genocidal regime, would that be good or evil? Personally, I'd love it if the stick could sense the evil in the souls of those who wanted to use it or those it was about to be used on, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that as a plot point.
RE: The Stick? - wfmyers1207 - 05-05-2016
(05-04-2016, 04:28 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Yes, they'd want the relic, but they want it because it's powerful.
Likewise, the seven knights decided to hide it because it's powerful.
My point was that the reason it was hidden from the royals and why it's coveted by the power-seeking today is what it can do. Not any religious significance it may have.
The whole argument about using the stick for good or evil is a huge can of worms. If you used it to save someone's life but that someone was the dictator of a genocidal regime, would that be good or evil? Personally, I'd love it if the stick could sense the evil in the souls of those who wanted to use it or those it was about to be used on, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that as a plot point.
OK, that is a fair point. Most people in these times are not as driven by religious belief as they were in the 13th century. Even those who are believers.
As for your point about what might constitute a good or an evil use of such a relic I am reminded of a true story. This one brings up a whole barrel of worms!
When he was 14 years old, Adolf Hitler got drunk for the first and only time in his life. He passed out in a ditch staggering home. A young farm maid passing by found him and took him home. If she had decided to leave him there, considering this was mountain country in November, he would have almost certainly died of hypothermia.
Did she do a good or an evil thing?
And this story is true. Adolf Hitler told it on himself to some of his cronies back in the day. There is a transcript of it taken down by his secretary at the time.
RE: The Stick? - Kathryn Wooten - 05-05-2016
(05-05-2016, 10:28 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote:(05-04-2016, 04:28 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Yes, they'd want the relic, but they want it because it's powerful.
Likewise, the seven knights decided to hide it because it's powerful.
My point was that the reason it was hidden from the royals and why it's coveted by the power-seeking today is what it can do. Not any religious significance it may have.
The whole argument about using the stick for good or evil is a huge can of worms. If you used it to save someone's life but that someone was the dictator of a genocidal regime, would that be good or evil? Personally, I'd love it if the stick could sense the evil in the souls of those who wanted to use it or those it was about to be used on, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that as a plot point.
OK, that is a fair point. Most people in these times are not as driven by religious belief as they were in the 13th century. Even those who are believers.
As for your point about what might constitute a good or an evil use of such a relic I am reminded of a true story. This one brings up a whole barrel of worms!
When he was 14 years old, Adolf Hitler got drunk for the first and only time in his life. He passed out in a ditch staggering home. A young farm maid passing by found him and took him home. If she had decided to leave him there, considering this was mountain country in November, he would have almost certainly died of hypothermia.
Did she do a good or an evil thing?
And this story is true. Adolf Hitler told it on himself to some of his cronies back in the day. There is a transcript of it taken down by his secretary at the time.
Not to mention the farmer was a Jew...and Adolf always remember how poor he was and how the Jews had more
The maid did not know that this youth would turn evilall she saw was a young boy who needed help, which proved to be the biggest mistake in history
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-05-2016
(05-05-2016, 10:28 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: OK, that is a fair point. Most people in these times are not as driven by religious belief as they were in the 13th century. Even those who are believers.
Yes, but in this case, even then it was its power and not its religious significance that caused the seven knights to hide the stick.
Remember, the whole point of the Crusades (at least publicly) was to secure the Holy Lands, and a great many religiously significant relics were brought back and found their way into the hands of the Roman Catholic Church and the royal houses that were its patrons. Yet this was the only one that frightened them enough to decide to hide it.
RE: The Stick? - wfmyers1207 - 05-05-2016
(05-05-2016, 11:02 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(05-05-2016, 10:28 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: OK, that is a fair point. Most people in these times are not as driven by religious belief as they were in the 13th century. Even those who are believers.
Yes, but in this case, even then it was its power and not its religious significance that caused the seven knights to hide the stick.
Remember, the whole point of the Crusades (at least publicly) was to secure the Holy Lands, and a great many religiously significant relics were brought back and found their way into the hands of the Roman Catholic Church and the royal houses that were its patrons. Yet this was the only one that frightened them enough to decide to hide it.
Yes that's true. But most of those "religiously significant relics" were fakes. When the Grimm knights found out what they had was very real they probably would have been scared to death! It's one thing to have someone give you a piece of old wood and say: "This is part of the True Cross, Spear of Destiny, whatever.."
It's another thing to actually KNOW that what you have is part of the True Cross, Spear of Destiny, whatever..
When I watch or read stories of fantasy, I sometimes think to myself: "What if I could actually do that?", and the idea scares the heck out of me!
Had I been one of the Grimm knights, there would have been no keys, no map, no anything. I would have buried it so deep somewhere that no one would find it. I wouldn't trust Mother Theresa with something like that!
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-05-2016
Well, what makes a relic "religiously significant" is really the number of people who believe it is. If you have a fake "spear of destiny" and everyone believes it's the real one and endows you with some great power to rule over others, then you'll probably get much the same results as you would if it was real.
By comparison, the "stick of destiny" appears to do its thing whether you believe in it or not. And yes, that's really scary. I've also wondered why the knights wanted to be able to find the stick again. Maybe they figured that the royals might regain world power anyway someday and the stick might be needed to bring them down?
RE: The Stick? - wfmyers1207 - 05-06-2016
(05-05-2016, 12:56 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Well, what makes a relic "religiously significant" is really the number of people who believe it is. If you have a fake "spear of destiny" and everyone believes it's the real one and endows you with some great power to rule over others, then you'll probably get much the same results as you would if it was real.
By comparison, the "stick of destiny" appears to do its thing whether you believe in it or not. And yes, that's really scary. I've also wondered why the knights wanted to be able to find the stick again. Maybe they figured that the royals might regain world power anyway someday and the stick might be needed to bring them down?
OK, that last point is interesting, but not relevant. Remember, in the 13th century the royal families still had all that power. The royal families of Europe didn't start losing power until the French Revolution in the late 18th century.
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-06-2016
Yes, but their power at that time was limited to Europe. The knights' fear was that the royals would use the stick to expand their power to rule the entire world. In season 1 we learned from Ian Harmon that that was what they were trying to work up to in the present, even without the stick. So the knights were right; they just failed to foresee the big setback the royals were going to suffer during the past 300 years.
RE: The Stick? - jsgrimm45 - 05-06-2016
(05-06-2016, 11:29 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Yes, but their power at that time was limited to Europe. The knights' fear was that the royals would use the stick to expand their power to rule the entire world. In season 1 we learned from Ian Harmon that that was what they were trying to work up to in the present, even without the stick. So the knights were right; they just failed to foresee the big setback the royals were going to suffer during the past 300 years.Very good point the 13 century Knight wouldn't have seen what was coming. Now the link that @BillyRocks posted showed Conrad questioning Nick and the statement below said he wanted the relic. Your point is correct but now BC could see the power to do what the royals failed to do using the relic.
How does that fit?
RE: The Stick? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-06-2016
I would think so, yes. Even without the stick they already appear to have co-opted the royals' strategy of fomenting disorder around the world.
We know from the previews that Conrad will be trying to get his hands on the stick. The unknown is, do they already know about it, or are they about to find out about it in the next episode or two?