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+--- Thread: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt (/Thread-Nicholas-Nick-Burkhardt)
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 05:30 AM)New Guy Wrote:(12-27-2016, 04:56 PM)irukandji Wrote:Hi Iruk,(12-26-2016, 06:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Iruk,
It is clear that you do not consider Nick to be Prince Charming, nor do I. However IMO, (non-clinical) Nick is not a "sociopath."
The Google definition of sociopath is:
Quote:a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.There are many articles about the disorder, including this:
http://www.medicaldaily.com/4-signs-sociopath-how-know-if-you-have-personality-disorder-406895
Again, IMO Nick does not have any of these four:
His ego is not in excess. He does have self esteem and confidence to face extreme situations. I have worked for and around some extreme egomaniacs and Nick is nothing like them.
You have made it clear he is not "charming." He does not manipulate others, but presents them with choices that may get them to side with him. If he was a manipulator, Hank and Wu would have asked to be removed from his cases, if they managed to stay alive. They both seem to like working with Nick.
IMO, Nick cares deeply about others. Note how other Grimms kill upon seeing a woge. Not Nick. It was his love for Juliette that made him release the strangle hold and to give up fighting. When Renard showed the surveillance video, he wanted to turn himself in and face the consequences. Compare that to FrankenEve's BS that it was Juliette, not her, who committed all the violent acts of hatred. IMO the Scoobies consider Nick a close friend and worthy of their trust.
If Nick had significant "Brushes" with the law then he would have lost his PPD badge and be doing who knows what. In one case, he asked Renard if he was being suspended, but he was not. I have read your many dissertations about how he operates outside police procedural rules, but IMO he handles Wesen crime within the Grimm procedural rules with (usually) approval by his Captain, Renard.
If there is a sociopath on the show it is Royal Prince Captain Mayor Elect Sean Renard. He is egotistical, manipulative and heartless.
N G
Hello New Guy-
Actually there are other signs of sociopaths as well. I assume that you, like me, are keeping in mind that sociopaths do not have to exhibit all of the attributes in order to be sociopaths. Here are some additional signs:
Lying and manipulative behavior-I would say that applies to Nick.
Lack of empathy. This goes along with the don't care about others in your article, so it's not an additional sign. However, it does apply to Nick. For instance, if you believe Adalind when she told Nick she loved him (on several occasions, actually), that's a statement generally put out to elicit a response. Nick has actually chosen to ignore it, rather than acknowledging he loves her in return or being honest with her and telling her he doesn't love her.
Showing lack of remorse or shame-I would say that applies to Nick.
Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations-Nick never really ever expresses fear, even in disturbing or dangerous situations.
Behaving irresponsibly or with extreme impulsivity-Definitely a Nick trademark here.
Living by the “pleasure principle-If it feels good, do it and avoid the consequences. Yes, this is Nick once again.
Showing disregard for societal norms-Nick, BIG TIME!
Having “intense” eyes. This was an unusual one, but the article I read interpreted this as maintaining uninterrupted eye contact. Failure to look away politely is perceived as aggressiveness or seductive. However, what I find interesting were the comments people made about the change in Grimm banners. In one, Nick's eyes were yellow. In another, blue. He does have intense eyes.
I'd say Nick is a sociopath, New Guy. There are probably other signs the two of us have missed.
I continue to disagree and see no substantive evidence to your claim Nick is a sociopath. However, you are entitled to your own opinion.
IMO, the show's real sociopath is Renard. He is the egomaniac, manipulative, self-centered creep that the writers indicate will soon be the major evil one on the show. You should enjoy it since his goal will be to kill Nick.
N G
Hello New Guy-
I know you believe Renard is the sociopath here and I really don't disagree with you. He's used people for his own gains. If you notice, Renard and Nick do not pal around together. They run in their own circles, each doing their own thing independent of the other.
But there is a major difference between Renard and Nick. Nick has gathered a small force of people about him. These people are so enamored of him that they will do anything for him, lie, murder, kidnap, even mutilation. All in the name of Nick's noble cause of Grimmdom, which as of yet no one has defined from beginning to end. In his own way, Nick is no different than Jim Jones. So, in my opinion, as you so aptly stated, Nick is a true sociopath.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - syscrash - 12-28-2016
Quote:Hi Iruk,
I continue to disagree and see no substantive evidence to your claim Nick is a sociopath. However, you are entitled to your own opinion.
IMO, the show's real sociopath is Renard. He is the egomaniac, manipulative, self-centered creep that the writers indicate will soon be the major evil one on the show. You should enjoy it since his goal will be to kill Nick.
N G
This is one of those times I agree with New Guy. Nick is not a sociopath. Sean on the other hand shows definite sociopathic tendencies.
Sean has most definitely had his followers drink the kool-aid. But there have been others that are just as bad, Viktor and Kenneth. Eric was was not as much a sociopath as he was misguided and under the guidance of his father the King.
IMO
If Grimm was the real world. I would agree that a lot of the Iruk statements would apply to Nick and he would be guilty of some really corrupt practices. But on every case, Nick is dealing with the world of wesen. In that world it is not that their actions are above the law. It is that wesen's live by a different set of laws.
I would agree their is no logical reason for the difference but there is a conceptual reason for the difference. Taken philosophically, just because wesen are guided by their primal nature that should not make them and exception. In the real world it would not.
But for the show premise to work. It has to be accepted that their primal behavior is acceptable within their community. It has to also be accepted that at all cost their community and actives must be hidden for the outside world. To make this premise work Nick must protect their world while keeping their activities from encroaching on the outside world. This by definition means not exposing the truth by creating a cover narrative. A narrative that will satisfy the outside world with an explanation for what they can not explain.
Quote:But there is a major difference between Renard and Nick. Nick has gathered a small force of people about him. These people are so enamored of him that they will do anything for him, lie, murder, kidnap, even mutilation. All in the name of Nick's noble cause of Grimmdom, which as of yet no one has defined from beginning to end. In his own way, Nick is no different than Jim Jones. So, in my opinion, as you so aptly stated, Nick is a true sociopath.Iruk the problem with your argument is all of Nick cases are based in the wesen world. A world far different then the real world. A world with its own set of rules. It even has it's own governing body that has it's own set of laws. The community may coexist with the real world. But they live outside the real world. And that is where your arguments falls apart. you make the assumption their is only one world. You want to view wesen as no different then those outside the wesen world. With the only difference being wesen have additional abilities.
Why I do not see Nick as a sociopath but I see Sean is. Sean's actions are not in support of either society. He does not support real world or the wesen world. He supports his own ideology. Nick and his followers function in support of the wesen ideology. Even Nick's mother would not fit the definition of a sociopath because the practices of a Grimm are part of the wesen world. Nick's mom is anti social but not a sociopath.
If wesen are viewed from a real world point of view they would be considered psychotic. Anyone that can ripe someones throat out with their teeth and not even blink. would be classified by dangerous and deranged. But wesen are not part of the real world. For the show Grimm they are said to coexist but live outside the real world. They are shown to live in a world ruled by survival of the fittest. Their mental state is controlled by their primal urges. Even Monroe and Rosalee though they live within the wesen world. They base their actions on the real world instead of the wesen world. Even though there are times when they have reverted back to there natural selves. Both have used their teeth to rip the throats of others yet suffered no psychological effects of their actions.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - brandon - 12-28-2016
And who think about Diana?.She is a psychopath too?.I would not define Nick as a psychopath,although it is true that he has managed to have a group of people who are with him and help him in " Issues WESEN"(and that his mother did not see him ,considered most influential to Diana for being "Hexenbiest".
Nick has managed to get the others in the community.Monroe was a loner and apparently is not interested in messing with the police,although the postman was "Wesen"
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 12-28-2016
Unfortunately I can't buy the whole argument that because this isn't the real world, Nick isn't a sociopath. Nick doesn't investigate murdered wesen. His cases usually involve murdered humans, humans who cannot live by wesen rules, nor should they be expected to. So to apply a different set of rules for the perpetrators and not the standard rules for the victims does not make sense in my opinion. The humans, who are the greater population and who have rules put into place to protect them, do not get the justice they deserve because a different set of rules is being applied to wesen. Wesen who are citizens of the US.
Wesen come to the US to live in the US, to be citizens, to exist according to the laws that protect everyone. If they want their own rules, they need to purchase an island somewhere where they and the little grimms can make their own rules and war it out to their hearts' content.
Nick is a sociopath. He took on the mantle of a maybe it's true maybe it's not past and gathered certain people around him to make it a reality. He takes a form of justice that he's completely made up and tailors it to each and every wesen. Most of the wesen he goes after end up dead so the chance for justice is nada for them. I'm not sticking up for criminals here, at all. But it could just as easily be an innocent at the end of Nick's revolver because he chose to render a made up brand of justice rather than using the one that's in place.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 12-28-2016
Nick lives in two worlds and the each have different rules. Nick also does in fact help wesen, as Rosalee's bother Nick, the rabbits foot Nick, Bud's enemies Nick, Monroe's hit Nick, the golden egg woman NIck, the Glühenvolk family Nick, and even in the fight to help wesen who didn't want to join BC. I'm sure I missed a few without a true count maybe a third of the time Nick is helping wesen on wesen crime.
Now I could be wrong but off hand I can't think of a single wesen Nick or Hank killed who was not involved in a crime.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 07:42 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Nick lives in two worlds and the each have different rules.
That is a sociopathic outlook, js. He can't live in two worlds when the world he lives in has a certain set of rules for everyone who lives here. Doesn't choosing another set of rules to apply to wesen speak of a very inflated ego?
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 07:44 AM)irukandji Wrote:Would you say a soldier lives in two world which has two different set of rules? When a soldier is at home one set of rules, when on the battlefield those no longer apply. Should we apply the same to Nick?(12-28-2016, 07:42 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Nick lives in two worlds and the each have different rules.
That is a sociopathic outlook, js. He can't live in two worlds when the world he lives in has a certain set of rules for everyone who lives here. Doesn't choosing another set of rules to apply to wesen speak of a very inflated ego?
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - syscrash - 12-28-2016
Quote:Wesen come to the US to live in the US, to be citizens, to exist according to the laws that protect everyone. If they want their own rules, they need to purchase an island somewhere where they and the little grimms can make their own rules and war it out to their hearts' content.iIruk That is true if you reject the primes of the show. The canon of the show is there are two worlds. One of the worlds is hidden from the other. If you don't buy that then from day one nothing about the show would makes sense. What you keep trying to do is point out actions based on the primes as flaws in the writing. That is like watching a horror story and complaining because it is not funny.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 07:58 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:Wesen come to the US to live in the US, to be citizens, to exist according to the laws that protect everyone. If they want their own rules, they need to purchase an island somewhere where they and the little grimms can make their own rules and war it out to their hearts' content.iIruk That is true if you reject the primes of the show. The canon of the show is there are two worlds. One of the worlds is hidden from the other. If you don't buy that then from day one nothing about the show would makes sense. What you keep trying to do is point out actions based on the primes as flaws in the writing. That is like watching a horror story and complaining because it is not funny.
The canon of the show is not based on two worlds, syscrash. It's based on a world that Nick has made up as he goes along. The human world of Portland including wesen existed just fine before Nick the grimm showed up on the scene.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 08:00 AM)irukandji Wrote:Was it or was Nick showing up just put the viewer into the picture? We have no idea what was going on in the wesen world until Nick the Grimm brought the viewer into the story. IMO(12-28-2016, 07:58 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:Wesen come to the US to live in the US, to be citizens, to exist according to the laws that protect everyone. If they want their own rules, they need to purchase an island somewhere where they and the little grimms can make their own rules and war it out to their hearts' content.iIruk That is true if you reject the primes of the show. The canon of the show is there are two worlds. One of the worlds is hidden from the other. If you don't buy that then from day one nothing about the show would makes sense. What you keep trying to do is point out actions based on the primes as flaws in the writing. That is like watching a horror story and complaining because it is not funny.
The canon of the show is not based on two worlds, syscrash. It's based on a world that Nick has made up as he goes along. The human world of Portland including wesen existed just fine before Nick the grimm showed up on the scene.