12-05-2015, 03:27 PM
12-05-2015, 03:37 PM
Hi Irukandji,
I agree that Quote:At the time when Juliette went to Renard, it was obvious her and Nick were through.Yet the script for the final moments reads: J: Good-bye, Nick. T: [growls] (Trubel) Good-bye, Juliette. N: [crossbow fires] [growls] [gasping] (Nick) No. No. No, Juliette. [Juliette gasping, moaning] Nick. N: Juliette, no. [crying] No, no. Note that Juliette's last breath was to say "Nick." She didn't say "Sean" the John that purportedly had such great "chemestry." She didn't say "Kenneth" the curb-crawler she had just fornicated with in Nick's bedroom. She was dying in the arms of the only man who had given her true love. Nick replies to her "Juliette" and is crying as he says "no, no, no." He was holding the woman who had shared his home and bed for four years. He was watching the only woman he loved and had proposed to become his wife die. Nick and Juliette had in numerous told each other "I love you." I do not recall either speaking such words to another person. The writers accomplished their dark objective. Juliette threw away everything good in he life, career, friends, respect and became the epitome of evil, hatred and immorality. I cheered when Trubel shot her, but the scene of Juliette dying in Nick's arms is a poignant moment. The Nick and Juliette relationship provided romantic drama, but I am an old white hat good guy gets the girl kind of person. I suppose the writers would have thought that plot would be boring and lose viewers. New Guy (12-05-2015, 03:27 PM)Hexenadler Wrote: As far as Juliette and Renard go, that's very debatable. But do you really think Kelly's death was the result of anything other than the worst kind of betrayal? I wasn't talking about Kelly's death. I was talking about Renard and Juliette. I don't see Juliette betraying Nick when she went to Renard. But if it comes down to the scheme of things, Juliette betrayed Kelly. She did not betray Nick. I would say Nick was astronomically careless by leaving his computer open where Juliette (or anyone) for that matter, could get to it. A cop who's supposedly protecting his mother should know better. Quote:New Guy wrote: But again, I wasn't talking about Juliette's death. I was talking about when she went to Renard. And New Guy, look at it this way. Nick got the girl kind of person. Isn't that what Adalind is all about? You should be celebrating. What I'm saying is that if Nick is the....what was it? White hat good guy? Well, if he's that person, and Juliette comes back, he should be willing to let bygones be bygones. What would Adalind think of him, charging off to avenge himself on Renard about something that happened with Juliette months prior? Nick got his revenge. He was an accomplice in Juliette's death. It's done, over. He's got a son and a live in partner now. He needs to face facts. He's gone on with his life and should be willing to let Juliette and Renard do the same.
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12-05-2015, 04:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2015, 04:37 PM by Hexenadler.)
(12-05-2015, 04:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: I wasn't talking about Kelly's death. I was talking about Renard and Juliette. I don't see Juliette betraying Nick when she went to Renard. But if it comes down to the scheme of things, Juliette betrayed Kelly. She did not betray Nick. I would say Nick was stupidly careless by leaving his computer open where Juliette or anyone for that matter, could get to it. A cop who's supposedly protecting his mother should know better. Okay, uh...I swear I'm doing my best to be civil here, irukandji, but that's just about the most horrible thing I've ever heard you say. You actually think Juliette didn't betray Nick when she got his mom killed? You're spinning the blame for Kelly's decapitation back on Nick? I don't even know how I'm supposed to react to that. I think it might be a good idea if we stopped talking to each other for a while.
12-05-2015, 06:13 PM
Hi Irukandji,
I will try to clarify my comments about Nick and Juliette's relationship. 1. I agree the relationship that was moving (slowly) toward marriage had ended. 2. The evil deeds Juliette did would be impossible to rectify. She destroyed any potential for marriage. Even if she repented and joined a convent it would be a miracle for Nick to forgive her. 3. I disagree with your point about Juliette's and Renard's betrayal of Nick: Quote:I was talking about when she went to Renard.Juliette knew Nick still loved her and even taunted him about it just as she prepared to rip out his throat in 4.22. You can read the script. His love never ended. You can see it in the 5.01 dream scene of Juliette's funeral. Renard knew Nick still loved Juliette. Even if he knew him only as Nick's boss he also knew Juliette was his woman. He had hit on her before and Nick would have mangled his sorry a**, but somehow by returning the stolen magic key Nick spared his miserable life. If Renard didn't think fornication with Juliette was a betrayal of Nick then he is totally devoid of moral judgement. He is unfit for any leadership position and a disgrace to the public he is supposed to serve and protect. 4. Nick's loss of Juliette is devastating to him. I have not seen anything to indicate Nick's love has faded. She made most of the choices that not only destroyed her relationship with Nick but everything of value in her life. She went to Renard for help, but he just helped himself to a "jolly romp." You said: Quote:and Juliette comes back, he should be willing to let bygones be bygonesIf Renard and Juliette both confess to Nick what they did, admit it was a betrayal and beg his forgiveness, then maybe it will be a "Bygone." That is a long shot. Renard, is arrogant and boastful and more prone to rub it in Nick's face. 5. Bottom line is Nick still loves Juliette. He told the Scoobie team to kill her just as Dr. Silverton would be asked to put down a beloved pet if it became rabid and killed a child. That is poignant. New Guy (12-05-2015, 06:13 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji, Hi New Guy- There was never any potential for marriage between Nick and Juliette after she refused his proposal. Nick came up with the old "I was gonna propose, but (insert excuse here)". In other words, he was never going to propose again. You raise an interesting contradiction in terms here, New Guy. You say in one statement that it would be a miracle for Nick to forgive Juliette. Yet in the next you say Juliette knew Nick still loved her and Renard knew Nick still loved Juliette. If a man is to the point where he cannot forgive a woman, he sure as hell isn't going to be in love with her. It ended, long ago between them. But the point I'm making here is that Nick has gone on with his life. He's got a baby, he's got Adalind. There's no longer any need for revenge, if Nick is the good man you say he is.
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12-06-2015, 06:32 AM
(12-05-2015, 02:01 PM)irukandji Wrote:(12-02-2015, 06:19 PM)speakeasy Wrote: Because I can forgive Juliette so much, I find I can do the same with Renard. But, I agree that there is always a choice and it is a bitter failure to give in to a momentary passion that betrays the trust of a friend. Pretty much unforgivable. I'm very fond of all three and it stings to have the story come to this. Thanks, irukandji, if I ever had to face the opposition in a serious debate, I'd want you on my side. Because of that, I'll keep my remarks confined to the areas we tend to agree on - that'd be my favorite subject lately, Juliette, and by default, Renard. Juliette and Nick were star-crossed lovers from the get-go, imo. Greek tragedy star-crossed. And she truly was most grievously used by the fates. At the end, after numerous other punishments visited upon her by simply being present in Nick's life, she was turned into a despicable monster - but for my part, she should be held totally blameless for everything that followed her taking the potion to restore Nick's powers. I'm talking about her sexual dailiances, her part in luring Kelly to Portland and Kelly's death at the hands of Kenneth, etc. She loved Nick to the end and that's the thing that matters to me. As the tragedy progressed, we saw less and less of the old Juliette emerge through the surface of the person she became as a result of the potion. Interestingly, I thought I saw the old Juliette take over from the time Kelly entered Nick's house and not fade until right up to the moments before her death. But it matters little to me whether she had a great deal of control over the metamorphosis that consumed her or none at all; the final outcome was foretold in the beginning in my view. Having said that, I realize it's a judgement call on the extent of her conscious culpability in the events that took a such terrible toll. But if I were sitting on a jury at Juliette's trial I would vote innocent; don't shoot me. There were so many examples of the failures that the condition of being mere mortals worked upon everyone involved that it's impossible to suss out the blame for this fan. I just hated the direction the show took with this subject, but it's part of the record now. I realize that there is the subject of individual responsibility for one's acts that is driving much of the conversation on this thread, but since I am a hopeless reprobate I don't have to concern myself with that. Sean, Renard, the Captain, I love typing that, is also a victim of circumstances in this circle of tragic events, and so I have no problem overlooking his sleeping with Juliette because of it. So for me, personally, the question of morality can be taken out of the conversation. I'm with you also, irukandji, in your statement that there are enough villains already on the other side of the wesen uprising, which involves a global threat (just as the Royals have been saying right along; and the reason why they want Diana, imo). I'm hoping that Renard, Juliette (if she comes back), and everyone else can somehow band together against an evil enemy because I fear this is going to be one heck of a fight.
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation." Bertrand Russell - printed on a beer mat in "Shaun of The Dead".
(12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Thanks, irukandji, if I ever had to face the opposition in a serious debate, I'd want you on my side. Because of that, I'll keep my remarks confined to the areas we tend to agree on - that'd be my favorite subject lately, Juliette, and by default, Renard. Thank you, speakeasy! Please do disagree with me. I find I often learn the most when someone has a different point of view than my own. (12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Sean, Renard, the Captain, I love typing that, is also a victim of circumstances in this circle of tragic events, and so I have no problem overlooking his sleeping with Juliette because of it. So for me, personally, the question of morality can be taken out of the conversation. I'm with you also, irukandji, in your statement that there are enough villains already on the other side of the wesen uprising, which involves a global threat (just as the Royals have been saying right along; and the reason why they want Diana, imo). I'm hoping that Renard, Juliette (if she comes back), and everyone else can somehow band together against an evil enemy because I fear this is going to be one heck of a fight. I originally viewed Sean as an oily character in the series. He always seemed to be in it only for himself at first. But I can see where being a bastard would have done that to him. Plus, I'm not so sure about the relationship between him and his mother. I tend to think that might have been a detriment to him rather than a benefit. I don't know why, but I always thought his relationship with Juliette was more sincere than anything else. I really liked it when she went to him for help and he helped her. I don't like the storyline with Nick and Adalind together. But if that's the story, so be it. Nick and Adalind have been given a chance. Juliette and Renard didn't do any worse in my opinion. If Juliette is brought back, I'd like to see her hookup with Sean. She and Nick are old news, we've seen everything there is to see about them. There is no point in putting the two of them back together.
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12-06-2015, 10:14 AM
Hi Irukandji and Speakeasy,
Sorry, but I just gotta Google. I agree with Speakeasy about “star-crossed lovers; a phrase from the play Romeo and Juliet, in the prologue to the play that refers to any lovers whose affection for each other is doomed to end in tragedy. I made my point that Nick still loves Juliette. As additional evidence I present the following partial transcripts: From 5.01 The Grimm Identity: Scene: Nick searches DMV records from his house to get Chavez' address. ________________________________________ [After writing down the address, Nick gets ready to leave when he hears a creaking sound and Juliette upstairs] Juliette: Nick. Nick: Juliette? [He runs upstairs] Juliette: Nick. Nick: [He goes into his room] Juliette! [He looks around the room, realizing no one is there and starts crying. He then takes a deep breathe] I can't do this. I can't do this. [He leaves] From 5.02 Clear and Wesen Danger Scene: Monroe works on setting up Kelly's bassinet. ________________________________________ [Adalind goes upstairs and Nick brings Kelly into the room and lays him down] Adalind: The last time I was in this room it was with Diana. I hope she's okay. Nick: Yeah, me too. Adalind: Have you heard anything about Juliette? Nick: [He pauses] She's dead. Adalind: What? Oh, my God! Nick: Trubel killed her to save my life. Adalind: Oh, Nick, I thought she got away with the Royals. Nick: No, she never left. Adalind: I'm so sorry. Thank you for doing this. [Nick leaves and goes to his room. He looks in the closet at one of Juliette's dresses. Flashback of Juliette asking for Nick to help zip the dress up in "The Other Side"] Nick cries in 5.01 because the woman he loves is gone, and likely dead. Even Adalind (not a friend of Juliette) upon learning of her death in 5.02 says “I’m so sorry.” If she thought Nick no longer loved Juliette, she would have said something like “I’m so happy that B***h is dead!” I remain firm in my position: Juliette knew Nick still loved her and even taunted him about it just as she prepared to rip out his throat in 4.22. You can read the script. His love never ended. You can see it in the 5.01 dream scene of Juliette's funeral. Renard knew Nick still loved Juliette. Even if he knew him only as Nick's boss he also knew Juliette was his woman. He had hit on her before and Nick would have mangled his sorry a**, but somehow by returning the stolen magic key Nick spared his miserable life. If Renard didn't think fornication with Juliette was a betrayal of Nick then he is totally devoid of moral judgement. He is unfit for any leadership position and a disgrace to the public he is supposed to serve and protect. A boss has a moral, professional and ethical duty to keep his or her panties on when alone with a subordinate’s spouse or significant other. "There is such a thing in law with employers and employees. There's an implied obligation in every employment agreement that each party has to have an obligation of fidelity, and trust and confidence run alongside that." New Guy (12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Thanks, irukandji, if I ever had to face the opposition in a serious debate, I'd want you on my side. Beware the deadly barbed tendrils of the Jellyfish!!! OMG, it just hit me, irukandji, may be wesen! Quote:Juliette... I am not so sure of that... Allow me to build a context for my response. The series opens rather in the middle of a relationship between Nick and Julliette, no scratch that because we don't know even that. Whether they are old high school sweethearts rekindled, or a one night fling that both tried to make into something more, or something in between is left for us, at this point to flesh out for ourselves. Hence in large part the disparity of opinion in what their relationship truly was and the disparity in how people view who is at fault and who should be held accountable. My interpretation, when we enter Nick and Juliette’s life as the series began, is we have a couple who are both getting on the longer side of the averages for a first marriage (another point it, for all we know Nick and Juliette may have been married before, or lived with other people before which would change things more than a bit). In other words they are at the moving in together stage of a relationship, lagging those on a marriage track statistically. In a couple of more years Juliette will be entering the higher risk category for pregnancy. And so with that framing in mind, the camera drops us into the life of Nick and Juliette. What I see is a couple, who are far happier and interact better in the presence of other people/couples, where they can be cute and charming together. When alone a slightly different picture emerge. Juliette from the get go seems more than a bit aloof, I speculate she has more than just a few reservations about a “life” with Nick. Hence my theory on the origin of the relationship between them boiling down to Juliette was out slumming one night when she met Nick. Juliette is vet, she has to be more than a little aware of age related genetic defects and risks, and yet here she is, an intelligent, well-educated woman with a life time of likely career success ahead of her and her biological clock is ticking. At the time of our opening glimpses into their life her prospect is Nick, a cop…with all the stress that lifestyle can bring to a family and relationship likely being carefully weighed out. And that is where the series Grimm, in my mind opens…. Hence I am not so sure how "in love" with Nick she truly is, how much does her mind overrule, if at all, her heart? How much of this relationship is driven by biological reality, she is getting into the higher risk category for pregnancy and she is only entering the "live together" phase of a relationship. For me the unresolved aspect is, did Juliette really love Nick with all her heart and was simply in a conflict of heart vs mind or was the love sort of a line of best fit, sort of a love the one your with mentality given the relative pool of prospects. Now you through in "enter the Renard" and suddenly the landscape changes and makes a lot more sense at least to me. |
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